The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

It looks like the Willis family rained on your parade. If you have a problem with their answers and who said what, maybe you should take it up with them.

?? I don't have any problem with their answers. If you have been following anthing I have been saying for the last 20 years or so you would know this. 

I have been saying that the SBT is inconsistent with the evidence and that the evidence establishes that none of the three shots missed the limo. All members of the Willis family said as much, although I would attribute greatest weight to their recollection of the location of JFK at the time of the first shot.

[Jack Nessan]

?? I don't have any problem with their answers. If you have been following anthing I have been saying for the last 20 years or so you would know this. 

I have been saying that the SBT is inconsistent with the evidence and that the evidence establishes that none of the three shots missed the limo. All members of the Willis family said as much, although I would attribute greatest weight to their recollection of the location of JFK at the time of the first shot.

Sure it is, right down to the second shot head shot and a third shot sometime later.

Good luck with it. Someday you will figure it out. I have faith in you.

[Dan O'meara]

You thought I had a stroke and you were worried. I appreciate the thought...But you don't acknowledge the contrary evidence.  The only "evidence" that supports your view is that you think JFK and JBC are beginning their reactions to the first shot at about the same time. 
Since the evidence from JBC is that he was NOT hit in the back by the first shot but recognized it as a rifle shot and turned around to check on JFK's condition, you seem to be awfully confident that his reaction and his right turn from z228-270 is to being hit in the back. What is the evidence that says he is wrong about that? Where have you acknowledged and dealt with this contrary evidence?
Reliability is not determined by pointing to a possible (I use that term lightly) motive.  You need evidence that he acted on that motive. 

As far as shame is concerned: you are the one suggesting, without a shred of evidence, that a World War II U.S. veteran and former member of the Texas legislature deliberately sacrificed his sterling reputation by lying under oath to the Warren Commission for an opportunity to make a few extra tourist dollars to try to enhance the value of his (already very important and valuable) photo.  And you think I am the one who should feel shame?
You may be convinced, but Dr. Gregory who examined the wound said it appeared to be made by the butt end of an intact missile (4 H 128).  Dr. Shires debrided the wound down to the region of the femur. (CE392 at 17 H 20) The direction of the wound was along the femur not across the thigh as a fragment from the right wrist would have travelled.
The unreliability of his testimony relates to when he said he slowed down and sped up. We can see in the zfilm that he did not speed up before he head shot. 

But we can see in the zfilm that he turned around to see JBC twice before the head shot, just as he said he did before the third and last shot. And that fits exactly with what Hickey and Powers said they observed. It also fits with Nellie's recollection that she looked at JFK and saw him clutching at his upper body before the second shot and did not look back after the second shot.  I am struggling to find any evidence at all that conflicts with a second shot at that time.
You seem to be ignoring Tague's testimony after that statement (7 H 555):

Mr. LIEBELER Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn’t say definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER . Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the
Hertz clock. It was 12:29.

Also, Tague was hit by a lead fragment of a bullet that deflected off the concrete curb.  The undamaged curb showed presence of lead and antimony but no copper (FBI report 21 H 476). 

Also, Greer said he sensed a "concussion" effect on the second shot but not on any other shot.  That dent in the windshield frame must have produced some kind of impact sound a few inches above his right ear:

Since the evidence from JBC is that he was NOT hit in the back by the first shot but recognized it as a rifle shot and turned around to check on JFK's condition, you seem to be awfully confident that his reaction and his right turn from z228-270 is to being hit in the back. What is the evidence that says he is wrong about that? Where have you acknowledged and dealt with this contrary evidence?

The accusation that I don't acknowledge or deal with deal contrary evidence, coming from you, is laughable.
Other than the recently mentioned T E Moore, who Jerry dealt with, name a single piece of evidence I have not acknowledged or dealt with.
The evidence relating to the Connally's is present throughout the thread but is most specifically dealt with in a discussion we had between Reply#587 and Reply#642.

The only "evidence" that supports your view is that you think JFK and JBC are beginning their reactions to the first shot at about the same time.

This is from Reply#587

The close-up of the Z-film below focusses on JBC. It begins with him looking to his right, towards the people lining Elm St. He has a quick look to his left then resumes looking to his right. By z167 JBC has completed his turn to the left and is looking towards the crowds to his right. He stays in this position, looking towards the crowd to his right, as he passes behind the Stemmons sign:



The pic below shows JBC as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign. He seems composed and untroubled, certainly in no physical discomfort. It appears he is in the same position as when he passes behind the sign.



So after his turn to the left (@ z160's), JBC is looking to his right (from z167 onwards), towards the crowds on his right. He stays in this position as he passes behind the sign and is in the same position as he emerges from behind the sign, looking composed and untroubled.

From this seemingly relaxed position JBC undergoes a rapid and extreme reaction. He is holding his Stetson hat which is resting in his lap. Between frames z222 and z228 the Stetson suddenly leaps up to his face. This action takes approximately one third of a second. It is incredibly quick. Up to this point the hat has been resting in his lap then suddenly, at exactly the same moment JFK is making his incredibly rapid movements, JBC also "decides" to make an incredibly rapid movement of his own:



This movement is so rapid it's difficult to see exactly how high the Stetson gets. In the zframe below (z228), the whitish blob in front of JBC's face is the Stetson.



It has moved from a resting position on his lap in z222 to being up in front of his face in z228. The speed of this movement can be measured at 0.33 seconds - one third of a second! It is an incredibly rapid physical movement from a resting position. It is clear this extreme and rapid physical reaction is in response to some kind of stimulus. It cannot be considered coincidental that JFK is undergoing extreme and rapid physical movements at exactly the same moment.

Do you acknowledge the evidence that JBC makes this incredibly quick movement as soon as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign?

[Andrew Mason]

Sure it is, right down to the second shot head shot and a third shot sometime later.

Good luck with it. Someday you will figure it out. I have faith in you.

One doesn't need to figure anything out. Others who were there observed the last shot as the head shot:

• Phil Willis and Linda Willis observed it.
• Ike Altgens observed it.
• The Connallys observed it. 
• Clint Hill observed it.
• SA Wm. Greer observed it.
• SA George Hickey observed it.
• SA Glen Bennett observed it.
• Dave Powers observed it.
• Kenneth O'Donnell observed it.
• Gayle Newman observed it.
• Abraham Zapruder observed it.
• Mary Woodward observed it.
• etc.

[Andrew Mason]

The accusation that I don't acknowledge or deal with deal contrary evidence, coming from you, is laughable.
Other than the recently mentioned T E Moore, who Jerry dealt with, name a single piece of evidence I have not acknowledged or dealt with.
The evidence relating to the Connallys is present throughout the thread but is most specifically dealt with in a discussion we had between Reply#587 and Reply#642.

Do you mean post #605: "The possibility exists Nellie is mistaken" or post #616: "Nellie Connally is mistaken in believing JBC cries out before being hit." or your suggestion in post #625 in response to me pointing out that "we have only JBC's evidence to go by, which is that he felt the impact and saw that he had been shot but did not recall hearing the sound of the shot." saying "I'll need some kind of evidence for this baloney, otherwise we'll go with the common sense explanation - there was no second shot to hear."

This is not dealing with their evidence.  You need to show evidence that conflicts with their clear statements that he was was hit on the second shot.  Gayle Newman said he was directly in front of her when hit by the second shot - she was 15 feet away from him  - and said he "kind of grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car" (24 H 218)

The only "evidence" that supports your view is that you think JFK and JBC are beginning their reactions to the first shot at about the same time.

This is from Reply#587

The close-up of the Z-film below focusses on JBC. It begins with him looking to his right, towards the people lining Elm St. He has a quick look to his left then resumes looking to his right. By z167 JBC has completed his turn to the left and is looking towards the crowds to his right. He stays in this position, looking towards the crowd to his right, as he passes behind the Stemmons sign:



The pic below shows JBC as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign. He seems composed and untroubled, certainly in no physical discomfort. It appears he is in the same position as when he passes behind the sign.



So after his turn to the left (@ z160's), JBC is looking to his right (from z167 onwards), towards the crowds on his right. He stays in this position as he passes behind the sign and is in the same position as he emerges from behind the sign, looking composed and untroubled.

From this seemingly relaxed position JBC undergoes a rapid and extreme reaction. He is holding his Stetson hat which is resting in his lap. Between frames z222 and z228 the Stetson suddenly leaps up to his face. This action takes approximately one third of a second. It is incredibly quick. Up to this point the hat has been resting in his lap then suddenly, at exactly the same moment JFK is making his incredibly rapid movements, JBC also "decides" to make an incredibly rapid movement of his own:



This movement is so rapid it's difficult to see exactly how high the Stetson gets. In the zframe below (z228), the whitish blob in front of JBC's face is the Stetson.

You are unintentionally making my point.  All you do is repeat how convinced you are that JBC is reacting to being shot in the back beginning about z228.  To deal with Nellie and JBC's clear evidence that he was not hit in the back by that first shot you need other evidence that he was hit in the back. 

There are, of course, the statements of JBC and Nellie to the WC stating that they think that JBC was hit in frames z230 to z234. 

Had you raised that evidence, which as far as I can see is the only evidence that JBC was hit that early, I would have shown how that evidence conflicts the rest of the evidence that shows that the second shot and third shots were in rapid succession. It also conflicts with Nellie's statements that JBC said "Oh, no, no" before the second shot (he is saying it around z245) and that she never looked back after the second shot.  She turns to look at JFK in the z250's until z270.  It also conflicts with evidence that JBC turned around to see JFK after the first and before the shot that hit him in the back.  There is no attempt to turn around to see JFK before z230.

Do you acknowledge the evidence that JBC makes this incredibly quick movement as soon as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign?

No. It is quick, but quite credible. He said he heard the shot and recognized it as a rifle shot, turned around to see JFK, fearing an assassination taking place.  That is what it looks like he is doing from z228 to z270.

[Jack Nessan]

One doesn't need to figure anything out. Others who were there observed the last shot as the head shot:

• Phil Willis and Linda Willis observed it.
• Ike Altgens observed it.
• The Connallys observed it. 
• Clint Hill observed it.
• SA Wm. Greer observed it.
• SA George Hickey observed it.
• SA Glen Bennett observed it.
• Dave Powers observed it.
• Kenneth O'Donnell observed it.
• Gayle Newman observed it.
• Abraham Zapruder observed it.
• Mary Woodward observed it.
• etc.

I guess "one" is you and you are right you have never figured anything out or you would not have chosen this group of witnesses to make some bizarre point.

[Andrew Mason]

I guess "one" is you and you are right you have never figured anything out or you would not have chosen this group of witnesses to make some bizarre point.

The "bizarre point" is that they all said the head shot was the last shot.  If you think that is strange and unusual you need to read more.

[Jack Nessan]

The "bizarre point" is that they all said the head shot was the last shot.  If you think that is strange and unusual you need to read more.

“One” has managed to compare witnesses with statements indicating a missed first shot, with a missed second shot, with a missed third shot, with two shot witnesses and with witnesses who state the second shot is the head shot, with witnesses who state they discussed the event and came to agreed conclusion. How about clue in and dump this idiot nonsense.