The First Shot

[Charles Collins]

Well it is good to see you take witnesses into account even if they were 150-200 feet away, had an obstructed view and did not provide a statement at the time, giving their statement 25 years later.  Presumably, you would find the recollections of people who had an unobstructed view from much closer - some only 20 feet away, and gave their statements within hours of the events to be almost as compelling:

• T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car.") (heard 3 shots)
• Nellie Connally (4 H 147. "I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.") (heard 3 shots)
• David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President’s head") (heard 3 shots)
• Bobby Hargis (heard 3 shots) (6 H 294):
  “….I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.
  Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally’s?
  Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don’t know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.
• Gayle Newman (19 H 488: "President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car") (heard 3 shots)
• William Newman (19 H 490 "The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it.") (first (22Nov63) described only 2 shots and later (24Nov63) 3 shots)
• John Chism (19 H 472 “When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side.” (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were).
• Faye Chism (19 H 471 “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left.”) (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were)
• James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any other. It shows JFK reacting.) (more than 2 shots-not sure)
• Abraham Zapruder (TV interview at 2:00 pm Nov. 22/63: http://www.jfk.org/Research/Zapruder/Transcript.htm - " I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two) (2 or 3 shots, not sure)
• SA Clint Hill (2 H 138, Recalled only two shots. After the first: "I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left". CE1024, 18 H 742: "I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left."). (2 shots recalled)
• Linda Willis (7 H 498. “ Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn’t tell where the second shot went.) (heard 3 shots)
• SA George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them.”) (heard 3 shots)
• SA Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. “As we completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard”). (heard 3 shots)
• SA Emory Roberts (CE1024, 18 H 734. “12:30 p.m. First of three shots fired, at which time I saw the President lean toward Mrs. Kennedy. I do not know if it was the next shot or third shot that hit the President in the head, but I saw ,,,what appeared to be a small explosion on the right side of the President's head, saw blood, at which time the President fell further to his left.”). (heard 3 shots)
• Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.) (heard 3 shots)
• Harold Norman (3 H 191. “but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,”) (heard 3 shots)
• Malcolm Summers (Affidavit, 19 H 500 “The President's car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no", then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I realized these were shots.”) (described 2 shots - not asked how many shots he heard).
• Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, “As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.” (heard 3 or 4 shots).
• Jean Newman (Affidavit, 19 H 489, “The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.”) (heard 3 or 4 shots in all – Dallas PD 22Nov63)
• Charles Brehm (Dallas Times Herald statement, Nov. 22, 1963 “The witness Brehm was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. ‘The first shot must not have been too solid, because he just slumped’.”) (heard 3 shots but said the second shot hit JFK in the head because he saw his hair fly up).
• Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he states that he thought “the President was ducking from the first shot”)

Another aspect to consider regarding the eyewitnesses that were close to the limo during the shooting is the noise factor. There was the crowd noise, the multiple Harley Davidson Motorcycles noise, the noise created by the limo and other motorcade vehicles, and even a train going over the triple underpass during the shooting. At the point of impact of the headshot (Z313) the limo was roughly equidistant to the triple underpass (where the noisy train was moving) and the sniper’s nest window. All of this extra noise level in the vicinity of the limo would be a disadvantage, particularly to the closest witnesses, to being able to clearly distinguish the shots above the other noise. Granted, some of them appear to have heard three shots, but quite a few did not. Harkness’ position was well away from much of the extra noise being created in the immediate vicinity of the limo.

[Andrew Mason]

"McIntyre appears to  be leaning left to check the left side of the limo.  He did not provide a statement so we don't have anything to refer his actions to."

The fact you are unaware of McIntyre's WC testimony says it all. Total incompetence

When you suggest that someone is incompetent because you think they have missed something, it can backfire.  You risk having that term used against you when it turns out that you are wrong. That, as well as basic principles of good advocacy and civility in debate, are good reasons to avoid this kind of approach in your arguments.

It would be helpful if you could direct us all to William McIntyre WC testimony. It appears that the WC did not include it in their 26 volumes.

[Andrew Mason]

Another aspect to consider regarding the eyewitnesses that were close to the limo during the shooting is the noise factor. There was the crowd noise, the multiple Harley Davidson Motorcycles noise, the noise created by the limo and other motorcade vehicles, and even a train going over the triple underpass during the shooting. At the point of impact of the headshot (Z313) the limo was roughly equidistant to the triple underpass (where the noisy train was moving) and the sniper’s nest window. All of this extra noise level in the vicinity of the limo would be a disadvantage, particularly to the closest witnesses, to being able to clearly distinguish the shots above the other noise. Granted, some of them appear to have heard three shots, but quite a few did not. Harkness’ position was well away from much of the extra noise being created in the immediate vicinity of the limo.

I expect there were some who were unable to hear that "horrible, ear-shattering noise", but it would have more likely been due to deafness than the shot sound being buried in background noise.

[Charles Collins]

I expect there were some who were unable to hear that "horrible, ear-shattering noise", but it would have more likely been due to deafness than the shot sound being buried in background noise.

Hearing it is one thing. Recognizing it as a shot is another thing.

[Dan O'meara]

When you suggest that someone is incompetent because you think they have missed something, it can backfire.  You risk having that term used against you when it turns out that you are wrong. That, as well as basic principles of good advocacy and civility in debate, are good reasons to avoid this kind of approach in your arguments.

It would be helpful if you could direct us all to William McIntyre WC testimony. It appears that the WC did not include it in their 26 volumes.

You are absolutely correct and I totally apologise for getting personal.
As you also point out, it has back-fired and I deserve it for losing my cool.
McIntyre made an intial report about the assassination but, as you correctly point out, did not testify before the WC.

[Andrew Mason]

You are absolutely correct and I totally apologise for getting personal.
As you also point out, it has back-fired and I deserve it for losing my cool.
McIntyre made an intial report about the assassination but, as you correctly point out, did not testify before the WC.

We all make mistakes. For what it is worth,  I think you are far from incompetent. Apology accepted.

[Andrew Mason]

I'll review a few.

Not enough.  You need witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first shot as seen in frames z150 to z193 - by smiling and waving.  Not a single witness said that.  We have dozens who said he did not. 

The witnesses said that he reacted in ways that are consistent with what we see after z193 beginning perhaps as he passes behind the sign and certainly by the time he reappears in z224.  Not only that, some of these witnesses said that in response to the first shot Gov. Connally turned around with a concerned look as if to say something to the president and the president leaned forward as if to hear what he was saying. That fits only what we see after z230 until about z270.

You need evidence that conflicts with their recollections.  In my view, without any evidence that JFK continued to smile and wave for seconds after the first shot we are left only with witnesses who said otherwise, however weak you may think that evidence may be. 

Dan O'meara started this thread by simply pointing out "This is clear evidence the first shot did not take place before z207."  Now I disagree with him by a tiny bit on that point.  I say that the reactions of Hickey, Ready in particular (they both described a right rearward turn in response to the first shot) begin several frames before z207.  But the evidence is really very consistent and extensive that the first shot was around then.  This is established not only by the witnesses who placed the shot after z186 (Hughes, Betzner, Phil Willis, Linda Willis, TE Moore, the occupants of the VP car, VP security car, Cabell car, press cars etc) but by the 40+ witnesses who said that the last two shots were close together.  Those 1......2...3 witnesses can only be reconciled with a first shot striking JFK.

Wasn't like Moore was side-to the President and the sign.

Moore was near the SE corner of Houston and Elm. He could see the Thornton sign without obstruction. His evidence is that the first shot occurred when the President was opposite that sign.  I am not suggesting that this evidence in itself is conclusive. But it is quite consistent with the location of the President provided by all the others.

More often than not, Nellie said she saw Kennedy before he reached for his throat.

Do you mean when she said "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you"?   Yes I agree.  But she also said that was before the first shot.

She also said there was less pause between the first and second shots than the last two.

Well, she said it "seemed" to her that there was (4H149):

• "Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the time that passed from the first
  to the last shot?
  Mrs. CONNALLY. Very short. It seemed to me that there was less time between
  the first and the second than between the second and the third."

which DULLES noted was different than a good many others:

• "Mr. DULLES. I just have one question. Mrs. Connally, on one point your testimony
  differs from a good many others as to the timing of the shots. I think
  you said that there seemed to be more time between the second and third
  than between the first and the second ; is that your recollection?
  Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes.
  Mr. DULLES. That is, the space between the first and the second was less
  than between the second and the third? You realize I just wanted to get, whether
  I had heard you correctly on that.
  Mrs. CONNALLY. You did."

How does Powers work for a Z190s first shot if he said the President moved left right away? Almost two second gap between Z195 and Z228.

He didn't say how long after the first shot that JFK started to move away from the far right.  He just described what JFK did after the first shot and before the second. We don't know when JFK's reaction began but he stops leaning on the right side of the car sometime after z195 and before he emerged on the other side of the Stemmons sign at z224. You seem to be arguing that the first shot was later than z195.

Hargis' account of who got struck on which shot is inconclusive.

Of course it is inconclusive by itself.  It is the fit with the other evidence that allows conclusions to be drawn.

I think he meant Connally was hit on the shot before the head shot:

    "About ten seconds after we made that left-hand turn, that first shot
     rung out. It sounded like a firecracker. First thing that came to my
     mind was, it was a firecracker. I was kind of hoping it would be a
     firecracker, but it wasn't. I thought Connally was the first one shot
     because he turn[ed] around and looking at the president like, you
     know, he'd been shot. And I remember Kennedy leaned forward to
     listen to what he had to say. And then when he raised back up,
     that second shot hit him in the head.

        -- Texas Monthly, 1988

Kennedy "leaning forward" toward Connally probably means Kennedy was hit at the same moment. (Hargis goes on to describe the SBT as what happened).

Ok. But this still means that the first shot was the one we see JFK and JBC reacting to after they emerge from behind the Stemmons sign.

At the Shaw Trial, Bill Newman testified:

    "I heard two shots — BOOM, BOOM — and when the first shot was
     fired the President throwed his hands up like this (demonstrating),
     and at the time what we thought had happened, somebody throwed
     firecrackers or something under the automobile and he was protecting
     his face. At the time of the first shot Governor Connally turned in his
     seat in this manner (demonstrating), to look back at the President
     I suppose."

Sounds like both men hit by the same bullet, the one fired prior to the head shot.

It sounds like he is describing the same thing Hargis described except that he does not say that he thought Governor Connally was hit - he turned to look back at the President.  Where do you see him doing that?

But it doesn't help that there's almost two seconds between Mason's mythical Z195-ish (or whatever it is these days) "first shot" and the President slumping about Z228ff. On the other hand, the Chisms didn't say the President reacted immediately.

The President had a hole in his windpipe.  His reaction began before z228 but that does not necessarily mean he realized he could not breathe immediately.  He would realize that when he tried to take his next breath. I don't know about you, but I don't inhale in every second.

[Dan O'meara]

But it doesn't help that there's almost two seconds between Mason's mythical Z195-ish (or whatever it is these days) "first shot" and the President slumping about Z228ff. On the other hand, the Chisms didn't say the President reacted immediately.

Elsewhere in this thread I've demonstrated that JFK's first genuine reaction to being hit occurs at z225
To imagine that it would take over one and a half seconds to react to such a trauma is beyond unrealistic.
It is an insurmountable problem for a hit at z195