The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

The usual misrepresentation and "maybe this, maybe that" waffle.
There is one factual error that needs correcting:

"Since it did not strike bone, the reaction could have been a fairly immediate but gradual reaction such as facial expression and hand movement followed by the more demonstrative reaction beginning at z226 when he realized he could not breathe."

The bullet passing through JFK fractured his T1 vertebra ("an undisplaced fracture of the proximal portion of the right transverse process of T1"). As explained in a previous post the "undisplaced" nature of the fracture indicates a glancing blow.
I've no doubt you'll argue JFK will still have reacted "gradually" to having a vertebra fractured by a bullet ripping through his body.

By gradual, I mean a bit more than a second before he fully realizes the impact of what just happened.  Kind of like the soldier in John McCone's anecdote who was shot in the back and didn't understand what had just happened for several seconds and then he fell over and died.

There are not many cases of this kind to go by.  Again, bullet wounds do not necessarily cause pain immediately.  JBC is a case in point. The transverse process is the small bone protruding forward and to the right from the body of the vertebra. The bodies of the vertebrae in the spine were not injured or strained.  So you are going to need some evidence that a non-displaced fracture (ie. a crack) caused by passage of the bullet some distance away from that little bone will cause immediate pain.

Most of these kinds of injuries are the result of extreme twisting of the neck which also strains soft tissue around the cervical spine.   JBC suffered an undisplaced fracture of the fifth rib at the spine.  It was not noticed until someone examined the xrays long afterward. JBC never complained about it.

[Dan O'meara]

By gradual, I mean a bit more than a second before he fully realizes the impact of what just happened.  Kind of like the soldier in John McCone's anecdote who was shot in the back and didn't understand what had just happened for several seconds and then he fell over and died.

There are not many cases of this kind to go by.  Again, bullet wounds do not necessarily cause pain immediately.  JBC is a case in point. The transverse process is the small bone protruding forward and to the right from the body of the vertebra. The bodies of the vertebrae in the spine were not injured or strained.  So you are going to need some evidence that a non-displaced fracture (ie. a crack) caused by passage of the bullet some distance away from that little bone will cause immediate pain.

Most of these kinds of injuries are the result of extreme twisting of the neck which also strains soft tissue around the cervical spine.   JBC suffered an undisplaced fracture of the fifth rib at the spine.  It was not noticed until someone examined the xrays long afterward. JBC never complained about it.

Andrew, I've noticed there's something you're not quite grasping about a reflex reaction. When you say things like "... before he fully realizes the impact of what just happened" or "bullet wounds do not necessarily cause pain immediately", you seem to imagine that the reaction is somehow connected to pain or what's going on in the brain.

"A reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus. A reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex

JFK doesn't have to realise something is wrong before he reacts to being shot.
JFK doesn't need to be aware of pain before he reacts to being shot.
His reaction happens automatically and is incredibly rapid.
The examples of incredibly sudden and rapid reactions I have presented fit into this category.
You have presented nothing which refutes this, just empty waffle.

It seems you will only be satisfied if I can find an experiment in which someone is voluntarily shot through the neck and has their reactions measured.

[Andrew Mason]

Andrew, I've noticed there's something you're not quite grasping about a reflex reaction.
When you say things like "... before he fully realizes the impact of what just happened" or "bullet wounds do not necessarily cause pain immediately", you seem to imagine that the reaction is somehow connected to pain or what's going on in the brain.

I understand that you believe that JFK was exhibiting a reflex reaction to the bullet passing through his neck.  But the problem is that there is no consensus among medical experts either that JFK's reaction is an autonomic reflex as opposed to a brain directed reaction or that the passage of the bullet through his neck that way would necessarily have triggered such a reflex reaction. Dr. Latimer is the only one who tried this approach.

JFK doesn't have to realise something is wrong before he reacts to being shot.
JFK doesn't need to be aware of pain before he reacts to being shot.
His reaction happens automatically and is incredibly rapid.

That is a guess on your part.  There are very few neural pathways that can trigger a reflex. The demonstrative part of the reaction that begins at z226 or 227 is as much as 220 ms after z223. Reflexes are much faster than that because the nerve signal that causes the muscles to contract (the reflex reaction) is direct - it does not come from the brain.

[Dan O'meara]

I understand that you believe that JFK was exhibiting a reflex reaction to the bullet passing through his neck.

This is correct.
My belief JFK is exhibiting a reflex reaction to the bullet passing through his neck is based on the recorded, measurable, sudden and extreme physical movements he undergoes.

But the problem is that there is no consensus among medical experts either that JFK's reaction is an autonomic reflex as opposed to a brain directed reaction or that the passage of the bullet through his neck that way would necessarily have triggered such a reflex reaction. Dr. Latimer is the only one who tried this approach.

This doesn't mean anything. So what if there's no consensus? I'm presenting measurable and extremely rapid physical movements indicative of a reflex reaction to a stimulus.

That is a guess on your part.

Read the definition of reflex reaction again -

"A reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus. A reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought."

When I say "JFK doesn't have to realise something is wrong before he reacts to being shot" this is not a guess. It's an inherent part of the definition of 'reflex reaction'.

There are very few neural pathways that can trigger a reflex.

Another meaningless statement

The demonstrative part of the reaction that begins at z226 or 227 is as much as 220 ms after z223. Reflexes are much faster than that because the nerve signal that causes the muscles to contract (the reflex reaction) is direct - it does not come from the brain.

You do this too often for it to be accidental.
Time after time I have argued for a first reaction at z225. Here is an example from Reply #534:

"It is clear from the above frames that this extreme movement of JFK's left arm can be seen most obviously in z226, when his left elbow, which has been hidden from view by the limo door up to this point, suddenly comes into view. We can say with little doubt that JFK's extreme reaction has begun by z226. Elsewhere I've argued that the very first reaction begins at z225."

With this in mind we find you are suddenly arguing my case for me (not for the first time)
As you point out - "Reflexes are much faster than that because the nerve signal that causes the muscles to contract (the reflex reaction) is direct - it does not come from the brain."
I am arguing that JFK's first reaction to a shot at z223 can be seen at z225, a time gap of less than 110 milliseconds. Perfectly in accordance with a reflex.
The unbelievable thing is that you are pretending that I've not made this argument before.
This is something you posted (reply #550):

The "hunch" that you are going on is that the response at z225 occurs within 2 frames or 110 ms after the bullet passes through his neck.

Just another example of you twisting and turning, saying anything you need to say to 'win a point'.
You don't seem to be aware that this forum is a record of the various debates going on and the strategies you employ to undermine reasoned debate are easily revealed.

[Andrew Mason]

This is correct.
My belief JFK is exhibiting a reflex reaction to the bullet passing through his neck is based on the recorded, measurable, sudden and extreme physical movements he undergoes.

This doesn't mean anything. So what if there's no consensus? I'm presenting measurable and extremely rapid physical movements indicative of a reflex reaction to a stimulus.

Read the definition of reflex reaction again -

"A reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus. A reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought."

When I say "JFK doesn't have to realise something is wrong before he reacts to being shot" this is not a guess. It's an inherent part of the definition of 'reflex reaction'.

Yes. As I said, I agree that a reflex is not a brain driven response.  But that does not mean that every sudden response is a  reflex.  If I suddenly jerk my lower leg it may look like a reflex.  But if it is not done within a few milliseconds after the stimulus (e.g. by the doctor hitting my knee) it is not a reflex reaction.  Furthermore, not every nerve stimulation causes muscle contractions.   Can you provide any evidence at all for an immediate reflex action of arms and hands caused by stimulation of nerves in the neck?

Another meaningless statement

You do this too often for it to be accidental.
Time after time I have argued for a first reaction at z225.

You have spent the last several posts arguing that his face is not showing a reaction in z225.  I thought you were, therefore, arguing that the facial response began at z226-227. So are you now arguing that the facial response is NOT a reflex? In that case, it may be too fast for a deliberate action for a shot occurring at z223.

[Dan O'meara]

Yes. As I said, I agree that a reflex is not a brain driven response.  But that does not mean that every sudden response is a  reflex.  If I suddenly jerk my lower leg it may look like a reflex.  But if it is not done within a few milliseconds after the stimulus (e.g. by the doctor hitting my knee) it is not a reflex reaction.

 
So JFK decided to make this extreme and rapid reaction reaching for his throat and by some outrageous coincidence just happened to be shot through the neck milliseconds before he made it.

Wow 

You have spent the last several posts arguing that his face is not showing a reaction in z225.  I thought you were, therefore, arguing that the facial response began at z226-227. So are you now arguing that the facial response is NOT a reflex? In that case, it may be too fast for a deliberate action for a shot occurring at z223.

This is a blatant falsehood on your behalf.
Just a few posts back I wrote this:

"At no point have I ever tried to argue anything from JFK's facial expressions.
The resolution of the Z-film is clearly not good enough.
Never have I even hinted at using this aspect of the Z-film to determine reactions.
On the contrary - it is you who keeps dragging in JFK's facial expressions as if can you discern something from them. Does this quote ring a bell:

"We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression."

I have pointed out the resolution is not good enough to reach any conclusions using facial reactions but apparently you can reach conclusions from it.
Really?"

I have made it perfectly clear I put no value on JFK's facial expression and it has never formed any part of the arguments I have presented for his reaction to the first shot.
This is just more of your twisting and turning misrepresentation instead of engaging with the arguments being presented.
It is the strategy of someone who has lost the argument but will not accept it.
Anyone who wishes to read through the thread will find I have argued that JFK's very first physical reaction to being shot takes place at z225.

[Andrew Mason]

So JFK decided to make this extreme and rapid reaction reaching for his throat and by some outrageous coincidence just happened to be shot through the neck milliseconds before he made it.

Wow

You seem not to recognize the circular nature of that argument.  You are assuming he was hit at z223.  That is what you are trying to prove.

This is a blatant falsehood on your behalf.
Just a few posts back I wrote this:

"At no point have I ever tried to argue anything from JFK's facial expressions.
The resolution of the Z-film is clearly not good enough.
Never have I even hinted at using this aspect of the Z-film to determine reactions.
On the contrary - it is you who keeps dragging in JFK's facial expressions as if can you discern something from them. Does this quote ring a bell:

"We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression."

I have pointed out the resolution is not good enough to reach any conclusions using facial reactions but apparently you can reach conclusions from it.
Really?"

I have made it perfectly clear I put no value on JFK's facial expression and it has never formed any part of the arguments I have presented for his reaction to the first shot.
This is just more of your twisting and turning misrepresentation instead of engaging with the arguments being presented.
It is the strategy of someone who has lost the argument but will not accept it.
Anyone who wishes to read through the thread will find I have argued that JFK's very first physical reaction to being shot takes place at z225.

I thought you were just referring to frame z225.  You cannot discern JFK's facial expression after z225? How about at z228?:

Do you not think that his face is reacting to the same thing that his arms are reacting to?

If you cannot see JFK's facial expression then you cannot see JBC's facial expression.  How are you concluding that JBC is reacting to being hit in the back at z223 then?  It has to be more than just the turn because he said he turned around because he was concerned about having heard a rifle shot and feared an assassination was underway.

[Dan O'meara]

You seem not to recognize the circular nature of that argument.  You are assuming he was hit at z223.  That is what you are trying to prove.

I thought you were just referring to frame z225.  You cannot discern JFK's facial expression after z225? How about at z228?:

Do you not think that his face is reacting to the same thing that his arms are reacting to?

Your posts have descended into random, meaningless comments unrelated to the posts you're replying to.
I don't know what to say.

If you cannot see JFK's facial expression then you cannot see JBC's facial expression.  How are you concluding that JBC is reacting to being hit in the back at z223 then?  It has to be more than just the turn because he said he turned around because he was concerned about having heard a rifle shot and feared an assassination was underway.

This has already been explained. You'll have to actually read what I've posted.
The clue is the big, whitish blob in front of JBC's face.