The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

When does JBC react?

[Andrew Mason]

Your posts have descended into random, meaningless comments unrelated to the posts you're replying to.
I don't know what to say.

??When you say: "So JFK decided to make this extreme and rapid reaction reaching for his throat and by some outrageous coincidence just happened to be shot through the neck milliseconds before he made it." you are saying that it is ridiculous to suggest that he had this reaction milliseconds after being shot in the neck but that there is no connection between being shot.  I agree.  That would be ridiculous to suggest.  That is one reason I have never suggested it.  His reaction is obviously a reaction to being shot.  A word of advice: if you are going to set up a stawman argument, don't make it a circular.

The question is how long before this was he shot?  Nothing you have shown or argued excludes the possibility the he may have been reacting for all or some part of the second or more before when he was obscured by the sign after being shot around z200 or slightly before, which is where the evidence indicates the first shot occurred.

This has already been explained. You'll have to actually read what I've posted.
The clue is the big, whitish blob in front of JBC's face.

And why would JBC not move the hat he was holding in order to turn around to see JFK?

[Dan O'meara]

??When you say: "So JFK decided to make this extreme and rapid reaction reaching for his throat and by some outrageous coincidence just happened to be shot through the neck milliseconds before he made it." you are saying that it is ridiculous to suggest that he had this reaction milliseconds after being shot in the neck but that there is no connection between being shot.  I agree.  That would be ridiculous to suggest.  That is one reason I have never suggested it.  His reaction is obviously a reaction to being shot.  A word of advice: if you are going to set up a stawman argument, don't make it a circular.

Wow
In a previous post you made this absolutely ridiculous point:

"But that does not mean that every sudden response is a  reflex.  If I suddenly jerk my lower leg it may look like a reflex.  But if it is not done within a few milliseconds after the stimulus (e.g. by the doctor hitting my knee) it is not a reflex reaction."

In your desperation to try and come up with some kind of counter-argument, no matter how bizarre or weak, you made the above ludicrous statement and I was making fun of it.

The question is how long before this was he shot?  Nothing you have shown or argued excludes the possibility the he may have been reacting for all or some part of the second or more before when he was obscured by the sign after being shot around z200 or slightly before, which is where the evidence indicates the first shot occurred.

There is no extreme reaction of any kind present in the Z-film before z225.
There is after z225
In your desperation you want to hide behind the Stemmons sign and play "What if"
The fact remains, regardless of some potential, maybe reaction you might want to cling on to - the time gap between your proposed shot at z195 and the radical and rapid reactions recorded in the Z-film at z225, is over one and a half seconds.
To have some mild kind of reaction for this time then suddenly to burst into the intensely rapid physical reactions we see in the Z-film is preposterous and it's on you to show anything from anywhere that is remotely like that.
Good luck

And why would JBC not move the hat he was holding in order to turn around to see JFK?

[Andrew Mason]

Wow
In a previous post you made this absolutely ridiculous point:

"But that does not mean that every sudden response is a  reflex.  If I suddenly jerk my lower leg it may look like a reflex.  But if it is not done within a few milliseconds after the stimulus (e.g. by the doctor hitting my knee) it is not a reflex reaction."

In your desperation to try and come up with some kind of counter-argument, no matter how bizarre or weak, you made the above ludicrous statement and I was making fun of it.

So.... you really were you saying that every sudden jerk reaction is necessarily a reflex?

There is no extreme reaction of any kind present in the Z-film before z225.
There is after z225
In your desperation you want to hide behind the Stemmons sign and play "What if"
The fact remains, regardless of some potential, maybe reaction you might want to cling on to - the time gap between your proposed shot at z195 and the radical and rapid reactions recorded in the Z-film at z225, is over one and a half seconds.
To have some mild kind of reaction for this time then suddenly to burst into the intensely rapid physical reactions we see in the Z-film is preposterous and it's on you to show anything from anywhere that is remotely like that.
Good luck

If that is the case, the WC, HSCA, Bugliosi etc. were preposterous for thinking it possible.  Ok.  What about John McCloy's (corrected: not McCone's) anecdote about the soldier who had a very gradual reaction to being (corrected: not fatally) shot through the chest?

[Dan O'meara]

If that is the case, the WC, HSCA, Bugliosi etc. were preposterous for thinking it possible.  Ok.  What about John McCone's anecdote about the soldier who had a very gradual reaction to being fatally shot through the chest?

In McCone's anecdote did the soldier have a gradual reaction then suddenly have an extreme and rapid physical reaction?
Please cite where the WC, HSCA, Bugliosi etc. describe a gradual reaction followed by a sudden, extreme and incredibly rapid reaction.
Please provide any example from anywhere that describes something remotely similar to a gradual reaction followed by a sudden, extreme and rapid reaction.
If you can't you must start to question the validity of the point you're trying to make.

Or accept the far more plausible explanation - the sudden, extreme and rapid physical reactions we see starting at z225 are reflex reactions to being shot at z223.

[Dan O'meara]

A key part of the model I'm presenting is that John Connally is shot through at the same time and by the same bullet that hits JFK. There are two key differences to the traditional SBT. Firstly, it's the first of the three audible shots fired during the assassination. There is no missed first shot and, although some researchers will never let go of their cherished models, I feel this thread has successfully argued against a missed early shot.
Secondly, this has got nothing to do with CE 399. There is no Magic Bullet. I believe the bullet that passes through both men fragments on contact with JBC's wrist. The question then becomes - is it possible for a rifle bullet to pass through two men? I doubt there are many who would question that possibility.
I will be putting emphasis on the Z-film as the 'priority' evidence against which secondary evidence, such as witness statements, must be interpreted and not the other way round - witness evidence driving the interpretation of what we see in the Z-film.

The close-up of the Z-film below focusses on JBC. It begins with him looking to his right, towards the people lining Elm St. He has a quick look to his left then resumes looking to his right. By z167 JBC has completed his turn to the left and is looking towards the crowds to his right. He stays in this position, looking towards the crowd to his right, as he passes behind the Stemmons sign:



The pic below shows JBC as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign. He seems composed and untroubled, certainly in no physical discomfort. It appears he is in the same position as when he passes behind the sign.



So after his turn to the left (@ z160's), JBC is looking to his right (from z167 onwards), towards the crowds on his right. He stays in this position as he passes behind the sign and is in the same position as he emerges from behind the sign, looking composed and untroubled.

From this seemingly relaxed position JBC undergoes a rapid and extreme reaction. He is holding his Stetson hat which is resting in his lap. Between frames z222 and z228 the Stetson suddenly leaps up to his face. This action takes approximately one third of a second. It is incredibly quick. Up to this point the hat has been resting in his lap then suddenly, at exactly the same moment JFK is making his incredibly rapid movements, JBC also "decides" to make an incredibly rapid movement of his own:



This movement is so rapid it's difficult to see exactly how high the Stetson gets. In the zframe below (z228), the whitish blob in front of JBC's face is the Stetson.



It has moved from a resting position on his lap in z222 to being up in front of his face in z228. The speed of this movement can be measured at 0.33 seconds - one third of a second! It is an incredibly rapid physical movement from a resting position. It is clear this extreme and rapid physical reaction is in response to some kind of stimulus. It cannot be considered coincidental that JFK is undergoing extreme and rapid physical movements at exactly the same moment.

[Dan O'meara]

Just to put the speed of JBC's physical movement in some kind of context. The following quote is taken from an article entitled
"Reaction time aspects of elite sprinters in athletic world championships":

"The best reaction times were registered at the age of 26-29 years for males (0.150 ± 0.017 seconds)"

By the time it takes an elite sprinter to react to a starter's gun, JBC is about half way through his movement.
It is mind-boggling that this middle-aged man, from a state of rest, is suddenly engaged in such an extreme physical movement.

[Dan O'meara]

An even more mind-boggling aspect of JBC's extreme and rapid physical reaction being discussed is that the first part of this movement is downwards

I lifted the following Gif from the superb site hosted by Vincent Van, "The Little JFK Page on the Prairie" [http://users.skynet.be/mar/Eng/jfk-eng.htm#sommet]
There is a small white area in front of JBC, just above the door of the limo. It is clearly seen in z222 and is part of JFK's right shirt cuff (for confirmation of this visit Van's site). In z223 the cuff has disappeared, this action happens in a tiny fraction of a second.



We are seeing JBC's shirt cuff suddenly disappearing below the top edge of the limo door. It is my opinion that this is the moment the bullet strikes JBC's wrist after having passed through his torso but for the moment I would like to make the point that at z223 JBC's hand has been forced further down than it's normal resting position.
This makes the movement from z224 to z228 even more startling as JBC's Stetson travels from down by his lap to in front of his face in approximately 0.22 seconds - less than a quarter of a second!!