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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 186694 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #568 on: February 03, 2021, 03:24:50 PM »
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Really Andrew?
When unequivocal and irrefutable evidence is put forward it's time to review and reassess your position.
In my opinion this would be the reaction of someone who genuinely wanted to get to the truth of what happened during the assassination.
The problem is that you have not provided unequivocal and irrefutable evidence. The shot around z270 is a conclusion that necessarily follows from the clear and unrefuted evidence of three facts:
  • there were 3 shots
  • JBC was hit in the back on the second shot, and
  • the last two shots were closer together with the shot pattern being 1.........2...3

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Look at this clip with open and honest eyes and you will see the near-impossibility of what you are suggesting - that a bullet exploding out of JBC's chest, shatters his wrist bone - the large part of the radius - and that this substantial force does not blow his hand out of the way:


How bullet impacts manifest themselves requires an analysis of details we do not have.  If, as it appears, JBC's right arm was pinned against his chest at z271 between the seat back and his side, it doesn't surprise me that the glancing impact of a partially spent and deformed bullet that fragmented on striking the radius if not sooner did not cause his forearm to move much. It does move there, but not much.  You can see that the position of the hand and particularly the hat relative to the hand changes between z271 and 272.  I am surprised you cannot see JBC sail forward from z272-278 before he gets pulled down onto Nellie.  I am surprised that you cannot relate the hair on JFK's head that flies up from z273-276 to the hair movement that Hickey described on the second shot which appeared to just miss JFK. I am surprised that you are unable to accept Greer's recollection of his turn immediately after the second shot and of the concussion sound on the second shot (consistent with the damage to the windshield frame just above his head).  I am surprised that you ignore Tague's recollection that he was hit in the face on the second shot. 

The fact is that all of this evidence fits a shot around z271-272, which is what the above 3 enumerated facts tell you must have occurred.  You don't need to argue about a shot at z271-272.  You need to provide evidence that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot.  If he was not, then there had to have been a shot 40 frames or so before the head shot and it had to have hit JBC in the back.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #568 on: February 03, 2021, 03:24:50 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #569 on: February 04, 2021, 12:17:36 AM »
The problem is that you have not provided unequivocal and irrefutable evidence. The shot around z270 is a conclusion that necessarily follows from the clear and unrefuted evidence of three facts:
  • there were 3 shots
  • JBC was hit in the back on the second shot, and
  • the last two shots were closer together with the shot pattern being 1.........2...3

The Z-film is unequivocal and irrefutable proof that Connally is not shot through the wrist at z271.
If we assume the bullet that shatters JBC's wrist first explodes out of JBC's chest, what you are proposing is a physical impossibility for a combination of two issues:
!) To suggest such a shot, passing through JBC's wrist, shattering the radius bone would not cause any kind of significant movement is truly preposterous which is confirmed by..
2) The position of JBC's wrist at the moment you claim it is hit. Look at this close-up from z272, the moment after the bullet has exited JBC's chest. The 'back' of JBC's wrist, where the bullet entered on its way through his wrist is facing upwards, towards JBC's face.
It is physically impossible that a bullet exiting JBC's chest on a downward trajectory could enter the back of his wrist given the position we see it in this pic:



I have gathered already that you cannot face up to such unequivocal evidence so it is going to be interesting to see how you circumnavigate this particular issue.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 12:21:47 AM by Dan O'meara »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #570 on: February 04, 2021, 04:55:13 AM »
The Z-film is unequivocal and irrefutable proof that Connally is not shot through the wrist at z271.
If the zfilm was unequivocal and irrefutable there would not be evidence that he was hit on the second shot. There is. So you have to deal with the evidence of the Connallys that he was not hit in the back on the first shot.  Suggesting that the Connally evidence is flawed does not constitute evidence that he was hit on the first shot.  There is zero evidence that he was hit in the back on the first shot. There are are multiple independent sources that support the Connallys that he was hit on the second shot.

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If we assume the bullet that shatters JBC's wrist first explodes out of JBC's chest, what you are proposing is a physical impossibility for a combination of two issues:
1) To suggest such a shot, passing through JBC's wrist, shattering the radius bone would not cause any kind of significant movement is truly preposterous which is confirmed by..
But his forearm is pressed against his chest. The bullet strikes the back of the radius that is pressed against the chest.  The bullet or fragments pass through the last half inch of his jacket sleeve, penetrate the french cuff of his shirt in the middle about an inch and a half from the end of the french cuff and deflect back off the wrist causing a large and very irregular hole in the shirt cuff:

It is apparent that the holes in the jacket and shirt are in the same location at z271.

The hole in the french cuff can be compared to the relatively small exit hole in the jacket pocket just below the right nipple where the bullet exited the chest. There is no hole on the volar or palm side of the cuff. 


The bullet or fragments would have deflected away from the point of contact, which is up.  So the fragments fracture the wrist and deflect upward. Where is the wrist going to move?  It is not going to move away from the chest.   
 
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2) The position of JBC's wrist at the moment you claim it is hit. Look at this close-up from z272, the moment after the bullet has exited JBC's chest. The 'back' of JBC's wrist, where the bullet entered on its way through his wrist is facing upwards, towards JBC's face.
No. It is facing the chest. The wrist is pronated so the dorsal side is pressed against the chest.
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It is physically impossible that a bullet exiting JBC's chest on a downward trajectory could enter the back of his wrist given the position we see it in this pic:
I have gathered already that you cannot face up to such unequivocal evidence so it is going to be interesting to see how you circumnavigate this particular issue.
It is easier to understand the wrist position by assuming JBC's position.  The back of the wrist is pressing against his chest.  The bullet does not penetrate the wrist. The fragments deflect off the back of the wrist.  This may be why the shirt sleeve has a much larger and more irregular hole in the back of the cuff: the long irregular hole is partly an entrance hole and partly an exit hole made by the bullet/fragments  There is no damage to the other side of the cuff. This is consistent with the bulk of the bullet deflecting up off the impact point on the radius and not penetrating the wrist or other side of the cuff.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 05:06:16 AM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #570 on: February 04, 2021, 04:55:13 AM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #571 on: February 04, 2021, 11:15:56 PM »
But it's the Z220s double-hit and corresponding simultaneous reactions. Not Z271; that's "Greer shot Kennedy" territory.
Dan and I both agree that JFK was hit in the neck on the first shot. The difference is that Dan is not persuaded that JBC was hit in the back on the second shot. He disagrees with the Connallys' evidence on that point.

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No less demanding is the fact that Connally was not hit in the thigh on the first shot. That's how silly your Theory is. Furthermore, 3D analysis shows a bullet transiting Kennedy's neck in the Z190s (your Theory's first shot: Z195) will arrive at a point to the right of Connally's mid-line, not pass by the outside of his left torso (per your failed Theory). That is, if one doesn't use Gumby as a model.
Your disagreement cannot be based on the trajectory.  The trajectory is right to left.  There is no dispute that JBC's left thigh was in the path of the bullet from JFK's neck.  The dispute is whether his right armpit and wrist was also in that path. 

But the resolution of that detail flows from the fundamental facts of the case.   

A more fundamental issue is whether the bullet through JFK's neck was from the first or second shot.  If it was the second, then there must be evidence that the 47+ witnesses who recalled the 1...........2....3 shot pattern evidence and which was mistakenly seared in their memories as the last two shots being closer together, actually heard a 1...2.......3 pattern. Even if you could take every one of those 47+ witnesses and cast doubt on their reliability, you do not end up with evidence of a 1.....2.......3 pattern. You have about 6 witnesses Nellie Connally, Cecil Ault, Gayle Newman, William Newman, Steven Wilson, and Kenneth O’Donnell who thought the pattern was 1....2.......3 and none of them gave a statement to that effect before January 10, 1964 (Ault). Many of the the 1.........2....3 witnesses gave statements immediately after the events with very clear recollections that have lasted to the present time (eg. Robert Jackson).

The three bodies of mutually consistent and independent evidence that:

1. there were three shots.
2. JBC was hit on the second shot and
3. the shot pattern was 1.........2.....3

cannot be reconciled with the second shot SBT.  This is why Dan and I eliminate the second shot SBT as a possibility: we agree that the evidence proves 1 and 3.  He says it was a first shot SBT.  I say there was no SBT - it was 3 shots and 3 hits.  Dan's model, the first shot SBT, has better evidentiary support than the second shot SBT because there is less evidence for 2. (JBC hit on shot #2) than there is for 1. (3 shots) and 3. (1........2...3).

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A bullet emerging from below the nipple in Z271 travels substantially downward and away from the wrist.
Not unless you think 9 degrees is a substantial downward angle.  That is the angle to 12 oclock made by the minute hand at 1.5 minutes after the hour.  [At z271 the horizontal angle of a line to the SN relative to the car being arctan(60/275) - 3° = 9°].  The angle through the body is greater than that - roughly the angle of declination of the fifth rib (25°) which is consistent with JBC leaning back about 16 degrees or the angle the minute hand makes at 2.5 minutes after the hour.

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Same scenario would work for the wrist injury occurring in the Z220s. The slowed whole bullet would deflect off the wrist and, slowed even more, into the thigh.

Sorry your Theory's first two shots have failed the BS Test. Concede the election.
All I can say is that it is a lot more plausible and a better fit with the wounds and clothing than CE399 doing all that damage, let alone following a bizarre path: passing through the wrist (without making a hole in the shirt cuff) deflecting over to the left side and entering the left thigh in a direction at an oblique angle along the femur, making a nice round hole (as compared to the jagged hole made in the shirt cuff).  Tell me how CE399 makes a hole that looks like this in the jacket cuff:

but makes a hole immediately after that looks like this in the back of the shirt cuff.


In fact, if you could get JBC's torso out of the way of the bullet path (by turning his torso to the right - like we see at z195) the bullet exits JFK's neck on a downward right to left path that intersects with the thigh at the correct angle and makes a hole in the trousers and thigh that looks like the butt end of CE399.

It is much easier to see how that could happen than it is to see a bullet from JFK's neck missing his hands in front of his neck passing through JFK's right armpit, exiting the chest pocket and going down to strike his right wrist, deflecting around the radius but still hitting it hard enough to cause a comminuted fracture sending bone shards down into the wrist, passing through the jacket cuff, doubled french cuff (but not exiting through the palm side of the cuff) and moving far enough left to strike the left thigh at an oblique angle that causes it to follow the direction of the femur. 

I won't call it a magic bullet because I know you are sensitive about that name. Let's just say that the neck-to-thigh path with CE399 is not any more crazy than the SBT with CE399.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #572 on: February 04, 2021, 11:23:16 PM »
If the zfilm was unequivocal and irrefutable there would not be evidence that he was hit on the second shot. There is. So you have to deal with the evidence of the Connallys that he was not hit in the back on the first shot.  Suggesting that the Connally evidence is flawed does not constitute evidence that he was hit on the first shot.  There is zero evidence that he was hit in the back on the first shot. There are are multiple independent sources that support the Connallys that he was hit on the second shot.
But his forearm is pressed against his chest. The bullet strikes the back of the radius that is pressed against the chest.  The bullet or fragments pass through the last half inch of his jacket sleeve, penetrate the french cuff of his shirt in the middle about an inch and a half from the end of the french cuff and deflect back off the wrist causing a large and very irregular hole in the shirt cuff:

It is apparent that the holes in the jacket and shirt are in the same location at z271.

The hole in the french cuff can be compared to the relatively small exit hole in the jacket pocket just below the right nipple where the bullet exited the chest. There is no hole on the volar or palm side of the cuff. 


The bullet or fragments would have deflected away from the point of contact, which is up.  So the fragments fracture the wrist and deflect upward. Where is the wrist going to move?  It is not going to move away from the chest.   
 No. It is facing the chest. The wrist is pronated so the dorsal side is pressed against the chest.It is easier to understand the wrist position by assuming JBC's position.  The back of the wrist is pressing against his chest.  The bullet does not penetrate the wrist. The fragments deflect off the back of the wrist.  This may be why the shirt sleeve has a much larger and more irregular hole in the back of the cuff: the long irregular hole is partly an entrance hole and partly an exit hole made by the bullet/fragments  There is no damage to the other side of the cuff. This is consistent with the bulk of the bullet deflecting up off the impact point on the radius and not penetrating the wrist or other side of the cuff.

Its clear you are willing to say anything - no matter how ludicrous - to try and keep your doomed model afloat.
I will let other readers come to their own conclusions about your response to the points made in the last few posts.
The notion that a bullet exploding out of JBC's chest, shattering his radius bone and leaving metal fragments in his wrist isn't powerful enough to move his hand is beyond desperate.

That the Z-film shows irrefutably, that your proposed shot at z271 did not occur is the final nail (of many) in the coffin of your model. There is very little point in debating something with someone who is willing to deny the undeniable.
The shot at z271 does not happen - this has been shown without doubt.

"If the zfilm was unequivocal and irrefutable there would not be evidence that he was hit on the second shot."

To anyone even remotely familiar with common sense or basic physics the Z-film is unequivocal and irrefutable proof no bullet explodes out of JBC's chest and shatters his wrist leaving metallic fragments in there. The paltry, dubious eye-witness accounts you cling onto change nothing. You seem to believe all evidence is equal.

"There is zero evidence that he was hit in the back on the first shot."

This thread is packed with strong evidence demonstrating JBC was hit in the back by the first shot. You can't "unwrite" what's already been written. You can only pretend its not there

"The bullet does not penetrate the wrist."

There is a relatively large lateral entry wound a few inches from the base of his thumb and a much smaller exit wound near the crease of the wrist indicating the bullet fragmented on contact with his wrist. It also indicates the fragment did not travel side-to-side but travelled 'diagonally' up his arm towards his wrist.

"The wrist is pronated so the dorsal side is pressed against the chest."

I find this physically impossible. JBC's hand position is clearly shown in the pic I posted. This is utter nonsense.

"The bullet or fragments would have deflected away from the point of contact, which is up."

Before you were talking about a 'glancing' blow, now we've got the bullet/fragments deflecting upwards. You are clearly willing to say anything.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #572 on: February 04, 2021, 11:23:16 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #573 on: February 04, 2021, 11:29:33 PM »

In fact, if you could get JBC's torso out of the way of the bullet path (by turning his torso to the right - like we see at z195) the bullet exits JFK's neck on a downward right to left path that intersects with the thigh at the correct angle and makes a hole in the trousers and thigh that looks like the butt end of CE399.


You have clearly taken leave of your senses.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 11:30:21 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #574 on: February 05, 2021, 12:05:23 AM »
You have clearly taken leave of your senses.

There's more weird pet theories around here than you can shake a stick at.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 12:06:14 AM by Bill Chapman »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #575 on: February 05, 2021, 12:09:17 AM »
There's more weird pet theories around here than you can shake a stick at.

What's your opinion regarding the first shot (and please keep your stick sheathed)

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #575 on: February 05, 2021, 12:09:17 AM »