The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

Its clear you are willing to say anything - no matter how ludicrous - to try and keep your doomed model afloat.
I will let other readers come to their own conclusions about your response to the points made in the last few posts.
The notion that a bullet exploding out of JBC's chest, shattering his radius bone and leaving metal fragments in his wrist isn't powerful enough to move his hand is beyond desperate.

That the Z-film shows irrefutably, that your proposed shot at z271 did not occur is the final nail (of many) in the coffin of your model. There is very little point in debating something with someone who is willing to deny the undeniable.
The shot at z271 does not happen - this has been shown without doubt.

There are a lot of people on this board who disagree with you on the first shot hitting JBC in the back.  Most accept that JBC's recollection of being struck on the second shot is reliable and accurate. 

If that is the case, as I suggest the evidence shows, then the second shot struck JBC at around z270.  That is just an inevitable consequence of the 1........2...3 shot pattern.   So don't tell us why there can't be a shot striking JBC at z271.  Show us the evidence that JBC was hit on the first shot.  Perhaps you can explain not only why no one observed him hit on the first shot but why it is that the witnesses who observed him being hit said he was hit on the second (Connallys, Newmans, Dave Powers) and why that is independently corroborated by others such as Hickey and Greer.

This thread is packed with strong evidence demonstrating JBC was hit in the back by the first shot. You can't "unwrite" what's already been written. You can only pretend its not there.

The "evidence" consists of rationalizations why JBC and Nellie are unreliable. That is not evidence that he was hit on the first shot. The fact is that several witnesses said that JBC was hit on the second shot. None said he was hit on the first.  The zfilm is equivocal.  If it was unequivocal that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot, you would not have reasonable people on this board disagreeing with you.  Even Jerry disagrees with you on that point.

"The bullet does not penetrate the wrist."

There is a relatively large lateral entry wound a few inches from the base of his thumb and a much smaller exit wound near the crease of the wrist indicating the bullet fragmented on contact with his wrist. It also indicates the fragment did not travel side-to-side but travelled 'diagonally' up his arm towards his wrist.

That is evidence that something penetrated the wrist but it is not evidence that CE399 penetrated the wrist.  The projectile that exited his chest struck the back of his french cuff about 1.5 inches from the end of the cuff. Yet it did not make any exit hole on the palm side of the cuff where the slit in his skin was located.  Perhaps you could explain how that could occur.  When you have done that, perhaps you can explain how it ended up making a nice round oblique hole in his left thigh along the direction of the femur. 

"The wrist is pronated so the dorsal side is pressed against the chest."

I find this physically impossible. JBC's hand position is clearly shown in the pic I posted. This is utter nonsense.

"The bullet or fragments would have deflected away from the point of contact, which is up."

Before you were talking about a 'glancing' blow, now we've got the bullet/fragments deflecting upwards. You are clearly willing to say anything.

It is just the natural path of a bullet exiting JBC's chest below the right nipple at z271.  How does a bullet deflect around the radius after striking the radius so forcefully?

[Andrew Mason]

You have clearly taken leave of your senses.

Perhaps you do not realize that the trajectory through JFK's neck was right to left. There is no path from JFK's neck exit to JBC's right armpit and right wrist that goes into the left thigh let alone along the direction of the femur:

[Jack Nessan]

There are a lot of people on this board who disagree with you on the first shot hitting JBC in the back.  Most accept that JBC's recollection of being struck on the second shot is reliable and accurate. 

If that is the case, as I suggest the evidence shows, then the second shot struck JBC at around z270.  That is just an inevitable consequence of the 1........2...3 shot pattern.   So don't tell us why there can't be a shot striking JBC at z271.  Show us the evidence that JBC was hit on the first shot.  Perhaps you can explain not only why no one observed him hit on the first shot but why it is that the witnesses who observed him being hit said he was hit on the second (Connallys, Newmans, Dave Powers) and why that is independently corroborated by others such as Hickey and Greer.
The "evidence" consists of rationalizations why JBC and Nellie are unreliable. That is not evidence that he was hit on the first shot. The fact is that several witnesses said that JBC was hit on the second shot. None said he was hit on the first.  The zfilm is equivocal.  If it was unequivocal that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot, you would not have reasonable people on this board disagreeing with you.  Even Jerry disagrees with you on that point.
That is evidence that something penetrated the wrist but it is not evidence that CE399 penetrated the wrist.  The projectile that exited his chest struck the back of his french cuff about 1.5 inches from the end of the cuff. Yet it did not make any exit hole on the palm side of the cuff where the slit in his skin was located.  Perhaps you could explain how that could occur.  When you have done that, perhaps you can explain how it ended up making a nice round oblique hole in his left thigh along the direction of the femur. 
It is just the natural path of a bullet exiting JBC's chest below the right nipple at z271.  How does a bullet deflect around the radius after striking the radius so forcefully?

A Mason:  The fact is that several witnesses said that JBC was hit on the second shot. None said he was hit on the first.

Absolutely Not True.

Bill Newman (WPAA interview), DPD Bobbie Hargis, Jackie, Nelly, all state JBC was struck by the first shot. All the 40.+ two shot eyewitnesses state the second shot was the Head Shot. Apparently none of them heard the shot that struck JBC either.

[Dan O'meara]

There are a lot of people on this board who disagree with you on the first shot hitting JBC in the back.

A lot of people on this board think very different things - a shot before Zapruder starts filming, 6 or more shots, shooters in storm drains/on the Dal Tex/ in the follow-up car etc. etc. The point of this forum, as far as I'm concerned, is to put up your beliefs regarding this case for testing by other members. That's what I've done from day one but I've noticed that only a fraction of the members seem willing to do that and many would rather have their beliefs untested.

Most accept that JBC's recollection of being struck on the second shot is reliable and accurate. 

I have no way of knowing how you know this but I instinctively don't believe you know this and that you are willing to make such unreasonable statements to support your own views. I think you should keep it to what you believe rather than trying to bring in everyone else. If they wanted to join in they would already have done so.

If that is the case, as I suggest the evidence shows, then the second shot struck JBC at around z270.  That is just an inevitable consequence of the 1........2...3 shot pattern.

The following clip refutes your belief regarding a second shot at z270:



Here is a close up of the same clip:



You may think it's reasonable to gloss over this unequivocal evidence that you are wrong on this point but it's not. To imagine a bullet is exploding out of JBC's chest at this point, and smashing into his wrist is, in my opinion, totally unacceptable. I know if I was faced with such unequivocal evidence I would change my mind, which is exactly what I've done on more than one occasion.

So don't tell us why there can't be a shot striking JBC at z271.  Show us the evidence that JBC was hit on the first shot.  Perhaps you can explain not only why no one observed him hit on the first shot but why it is that the witnesses who observed him being hit said he was hit on the second (Connallys, Newmans, Dave Powers) and why that is independently corroborated by others such as Hickey and Greer.

Before we got into contradictory witness statements of the Connally's I presented argument after argument concerning the complex of sudden, extreme and incredibly rapid reactions both JFK and JBC both undergo at exactly the same moment, demonstrating both men were shot through at the same time. You struggled with this section of the thread but once we got into the vague, contradictory nature of eye-witness accounts, you came alive.

The fact is that several witnesses said that JBC was hit on the second shot. None said he was hit on the first.  The zfilm is equivocal.  If it was unequivocal that JBC was hit in the back on the first shot, you would not have reasonable people on this board disagreeing with you.  Even Jerry disagrees with you on that point.

Back to your old tricks I see.
I've never said the Z-film was unequivocal regarding JBC being hit in the back on the first shot because it's not. I've compiled a series of of arguments based on observations of various extreme and rapid reactions shown in the Z-film.
However, the Z-film is unequivocal when it comes to refuting your supposed shot at z270.
(BTW - Jerry agrees with me that your model is over)

That is evidence that something penetrated the wrist but it is not evidence that CE399 penetrated the wrist.  The projectile that exited his chest struck the back of his french cuff about 1.5 inches from the end of the cuff. Yet it did not make any exit hole on the palm side of the cuff where the slit in his skin was located.  Perhaps you could explain how that could occur.  When you have done that, perhaps you can explain how it ended up making a nice round oblique hole in his left thigh along the direction of the femur. 

The entrance wound is a lateral wound a few inches away from the base of the thumb. This area is covered by JBC's cuff.
The exit wound is a much smaller wound near the creases of the wrist. In the pic below we can see that this part of his hand is not covered by his cuff:



That is why there is damage to one side of his cuff and not the other. You seem to imagine it is a through-and-through wound and that it should appear on the other side of his cuff. It's not, the bullet/fragment travels 'diagonally, up his arm to his wrist.
The fragment blown out of this wound hits the inside of his left thigh.

It is just the natural path of a bullet exiting JBC's chest below the right nipple at z271.  How does a bullet deflect around the radius after striking the radius so forcefully?

It's a glancing blow when it suits you and a forceful blow when it suits.
JBC's right arm is holding his Stetson in his lap when he's hit in the wrist, hence the 'diagonal' nature of his wound. I believe the bullet fragments on contact, some deflected away from the wrist, some metal fragments stuck in his wrist and at least one significant fragment blowing through his wrist and into his thigh. Nothing deflects "around the radius".

[Dan O'meara]

Perhaps you do not realize that the trajectory through JFK's neck was right to left. There is no path from JFK's neck exit to JBC's right armpit and right wrist that goes into the left thigh let alone along the direction of the femur:

Oh I do realise that the trajectory of the bullet is right to left (from the shooters POV) which is yet another reason your proposed shot at z270 doesn't work.
I don't know why there's a picture of Moby up front sat like he's riding a bull and twisted round in such an extreme way but even with all these unlikely contortions the shot hits the top of his thigh, not the inside.
To imagine JBC is hit on the inside of his left thigh from the bullet passing through JFK's neck is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard on this forum, and that's up against some stiff competition.
I wonder how many other forum members are going to go along with this one.

[Andrew Mason]

Oh I do realise that the trajectory of the bullet is right to left (from the shooters POV) which is yet another reason your proposed shot at z270 doesn't work.

Actually, it is NOT a problem at z270 because by z270 the car has turned left so that the shot from the SN is in the direction of the car almost directly from behind. At z270, the right-to-left path from the SN through JBC is arctan(2.3125 /54.0625) or  about 2.5 degrees.

To imagine JBC is hit on the inside of his left thigh from the bullet passing through JFK's neck is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard on this forum, and that's up against some stiff competition.
I wonder how many other forum members are going to go along with this one.

The 3d frames I provided show not only that it is possible, but that it fits the positions of JBC and JFK around z195.  If you think that is ridiculous, what do you call the left to right jog from the left side of JFK's tie knot to strike JBC's right armpit followed by the right to left jog after the wrist to strike the thigh (not to mention the left to right sudden 90 degree turn to follow along the femur)? 

Besides, the thigh wound was on the top portion of the thigh in the same direction as and along the femur (toward the knee):

• and lower third, medial apact. of the left thigh. X-rays of
  the thigh and revealed a bullet fragment which was imbedded
  in the body of the femur via the distal third.
  ...
  The direction of the missile wound was judged not to be in the course
  of the femoral vessel, since the wound was distal and anterior to Hunter's canal.

The Hunter's canal is on the inside of the thigh. This wound was above that to the front (anterior) side.

[Dan O'meara]

Actually, it is NOT a problem at z270 because by z270 the car has turned left so that the shot from the SN is in the direction of the car almost directly from behind. At z270, the right-to-left path from the SN through JBC is arctan(2.3125 /54.0625) or  about 2.5 degrees.
The 3d frames I provided show not only that it is possible, but that it fits the positions of JBC and JFK around z195.  If you think that is ridiculous, what do you call the left to right jog from the left side of JFK's tie knot to strike JBC's right armpit followed by the right to left jog after the wrist to strike the thigh (not to mention the left to right sudden 90 degree turn to follow along the femur)? 

Besides, the thigh wound was on the top portion of the thigh in the same direction as and along the femur (toward the knee):

• and lower third, medial apact. of the left thigh. X-rays of
  the thigh and revealed a bullet fragment which was imbedded
  in the body of the femur via the distal third.
  ...
  The direction of the missile wound was judged not to be in the course
  of the femoral vessel, since the wound was distal and anterior to Hunter's canal.

The Hunter's canal is on the inside of the thigh. This wound was above that to the front (anterior) side.

Please explain how you have established this seated position (body turn and legs) for Moby...sorry, JBC

[Andrew Mason]

Please explain how you have established this seated position (body turn and legs) for Moby...sorry, JBC

The positions in the car are based on their positions seen in z193-198.