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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 186836 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #680 on: February 23, 2021, 04:05:54 AM »
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You're silly enough to believe the agents' claim that they physically reacted "instantaneously" to the first shot. And that the third shot came after the head shot.

Mason and you are eating out of the same bowl of Froot Loops.

What a brilliant critique Jerry! ::)

Even this sad, pathetic response is wrong. Nowhere does it say the agents reacted "instantaneously".
Do you have any idea how weak this response looks?
This is the brilliant argument you put forward to undermine the ramifications of my analysis of Altgens 6?
It's the death knell for your model and your response reflects that.

I take this as a ringing endorsement of the arguments I've put forward.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #680 on: February 23, 2021, 04:05:54 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #681 on: February 23, 2021, 08:26:11 AM »
It's just that a frame like Z162 is "just about in front of me".

 

Chism would be watching the car as it neared him. The Willis photo is about two seconds later and the Chisms appear pretty close to the car, so certainly some looking up towards the car before that.

However, Chism seems to recount just two shots:

    "And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved
     at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point
     I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President,"
     sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side. At this point,
     I saw Mrs. Kennedy stand up and pull his head over in her lap,
     and then lay down over him as if to shield him."

In that case, the "first" shot is the one before the head shot. He's describing as the "first shot" the SBT shot in the Z220s. Another thing, too, Chism wasn't sure about the number of shots, allowing for up to three. But he could only really recount what happened during two of those.

If the first of the three shots was the one he lost track of, it's possible he heard it while the car was further up Elm.

His wife, Marvin Faye, is also "first shot" before the head shot:

    "As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the
     President fell to his left. The President's wife immediately stood over
     him, and she pulled him up, and lay him down in the seat, and she
     stood up over him in the car. The President was standing and waving
     and smiling at the people when the shot happened.

     And then there was a second shot that I heard, after the President's
     wife had pulled him down in the seat."

Likewise, Jean Newman. So basically, their statements could be a way to situate the moment of the second shot, rather than the first. The general consensus is that three shots were fired, with the head shot being the last.

The eyewitness accounts are interesting but often not reliable. I look at the film for subjectivity (yes, film and digital recording can be manipulated, but this one seems accurate).

The turning of the heads of the Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy just as Rosemary Willis begins to slow to stop: that's first shot territory. The simultaneous reactions of both men in the Z220s: that's second shot territory. The head shot: obvious, but the head initially goes forward first, so consistent with SN.

Both Chism and Newman could not have been more explicit in declaring they only heard two shots. It does not require any explanation or interpretation if you just read what they stated. Jean Newman states the first shot occurred after the car was past her not before. The first shot took place when the limo was between where Jean Newman and the Chisms were standing not before it got to them.

Jean Newman:

My name is Jean Newman. I live with my parents, my father's name is G. O. Kimbriel. I work at the Rheam Manufacturing Company.

I was standing right on this side of the Stemmons Freeway sign, about half-way between the sign and the edge of the building on the corner. I was by myself, there were other people around watching the motorcade. The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.

By this time, the motorcade never did stop, and the President fell to his left and his wife jumped up on her knees, I believe it was, in the back of the car on her knees, I couldn't say that for sure. And I realized then it had been a shot. I looked in the car and she was on her knees, and he wasn't even visible in the car. I looked around then, and everyone was running every which way, I don't know why I didn't run, I just stood there and backed up and looked around to see if I could see anything, but I saw no one whatever with anything that resembled a gun or anything of that kind.

I just heard two shots.

John Chism:

When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side. At this point, I saw Mrs. Kennedy stand up and pull his head over in her lap, and then lay down over him as if to shield him.

And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired. At this point, I looked behind me, to see whether it was a fireworks display or something. And then I saw a lot of people funning for cover, behind the embankment there back up on the grass.

And at this point, I turned back around and saw the motorcade beginning to speed up, and everybody was laying down but the driver, of course. I didn't notice where it went. My wife and I began seeking cover, and we went to our car, and then we told the policeman about what we knew.
----------------------
This particular statement by John Chism exactly matches to what Kellerman testifies to in his WC testimony about turning after the first shot and before the second, the head shot.
"And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired"

Kellerman Official Report
 "We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m....... I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap."

WC testimony:
 Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was


Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.
Senator COOPER. About the time it came in?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Not before?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #682 on: February 23, 2021, 11:02:19 AM »
Both Chism and Newman could not have been more explicit in declaring they only heard two shots. It does not require any explanation or interpretation if you just read what they stated. Jean Newman states the first shot occurred after the car was past her not before. The first shot took place when the limo was between where Jean Newman and the Chisms were standing not before it got to them.

Jean Newman:

My name is Jean Newman. I live with my parents, my father's name is G. O. Kimbriel. I work at the Rheam Manufacturing Company.

I was standing right on this side of the Stemmons Freeway sign, about half-way between the sign and the edge of the building on the corner. I was by myself, there were other people around watching the motorcade. The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.

By this time, the motorcade never did stop, and the President fell to his left and his wife jumped up on her knees, I believe it was, in the back of the car on her knees, I couldn't say that for sure. And I realized then it had been a shot. I looked in the car and she was on her knees, and he wasn't even visible in the car. I looked around then, and everyone was running every which way, I don't know why I didn't run, I just stood there and backed up and looked around to see if I could see anything, but I saw no one whatever with anything that resembled a gun or anything of that kind.

I just heard two shots.

John Chism:

When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side. At this point, I saw Mrs. Kennedy stand up and pull his head over in her lap, and then lay down over him as if to shield him.

And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired. At this point, I looked behind me, to see whether it was a fireworks display or something. And then I saw a lot of people funning for cover, behind the embankment there back up on the grass.

And at this point, I turned back around and saw the motorcade beginning to speed up, and everybody was laying down but the driver, of course. I didn't notice where it went. My wife and I began seeking cover, and we went to our car, and then we told the policeman about what we knew.
----------------------
This particular statement by John Chism exactly matches to what Kellerman testifies to in his WC testimony about turning after the first shot and before the second, the head shot.
"And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired"

Kellerman Official Report
 "We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m....... I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap."

WC testimony:
 Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was


Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.
Senator COOPER. About the time it came in?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Not before?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.



This particular statement by John Chism exactly matches to what Kellerman testifies to in his WC testimony about turning after the first shot and before the second, the head shot.
"And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired"



For me, Chism's observation about the headshot is validated because it is confirmed by the Z-film:






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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #682 on: February 23, 2021, 11:02:19 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #683 on: February 23, 2021, 03:50:49 PM »
Boom -- another insightful contribution.

Boom. Another intimidated Oswald-lover.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #684 on: February 23, 2021, 04:41:48 PM »
This particular statement by John Chism exactly matches to what Kellerman testifies to in his WC testimony about turning after the first shot and before the second, the head shot.
"And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired"



For me, Chism's observation about the headshot is validated because it is confirmed by the Z-film:



Zapruder thought there was only two shots.

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line. I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).
Mr. LIEBELER - Grab himself on the front of his chest?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Right---something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].


Mr. ZAPRUDER - I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling,




The Willis 5 photo with JFK waving to the crowd in the area of Newman, Chisms, and the secretaries Calvery, Hicks and Westbrook at Z202+.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #684 on: February 23, 2021, 04:41:48 PM »


Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #685 on: February 23, 2021, 05:53:24 PM »
It's such an obvious point that is regularly brushed under the carpet.
A bullet, fired from the SN, passing clean through JFK must hit JBC.
Really? It must?
The autopsy - not conjecture, but physical evidence - describes a bullet entering Kennedy's back. No exit wound.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #686 on: February 23, 2021, 06:03:41 PM »
This particular statement by John Chism exactly matches to what Kellerman testifies to in his WC testimony about turning after the first shot and before the second, the head shot.
"And the two men in the front seat, I don't know who they were, looked back, and just about the time they looked back, the second shot was fired"



For me, Chism's observation about the headshot is validated because it is confirmed by the Z-film:



Dan. have you read Tink Thompson's story about his investigation of the events depicted in the Z film.
You may find some answers in Thompson's story.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #687 on: February 24, 2021, 03:46:59 AM »
Boom. Another intimidated Oswald-lover.

How's your Dad's grave being kept up?  You couldn't "intimidate" a flea.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #687 on: February 24, 2021, 03:46:59 AM »