The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

I said "No. It is quick, but quite credible".

Yeah Andrew. That's what's being said.

"Do you acknowledge the evidence that JBC makes this incredibly quick movement as soon as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign?"

The answer to this question is either Yes or No.
You have chosen No.
You've written it down Andrew.
It's on the record.
You point-blank refuse to accept evidence that conflicts with your dead theory.
Now I've pointed out your denial, you have started back-tracking.

Both men are making incredibly rapid movements as they emerge from behind the Stemmons sign.
This cannot be denied. It is there for all to see in the Z-film.
The obvious candidate for causing the men to react so violently at exactly the same moment is a bullet passing through both of them [or that they were shot by different bullets at exactly the same moment].

But is it exactly the same moment and does this violent reaction begin after they have emerged from behind the sign?

You are trying to relate his actions to an event at z223 or z224. If he was reacting at z228 to a shot at z223 or z224 it would be incredible as in not believable. According to the evidence he is reacting quickly, but believably so, to a shot about 1.5 seconds earlier that, according to his evidence, he heard but did not feel.

If he was reacting at z228 to a shot at z223 or z224 it would be incredible as in not believable.

Rather than just your biased opinion about this why don't you provide some evidence backing up this point.
You argue a physical reaction within 4/5 z-frames would be "incredible". What is your evidence for this?

This is from Reply#900 [beginning a discussion on the effect of bullet cavitation as it passes through the Brachial Plexus - including the nerves controlling motor function to the arms/hands]:

Comments from Dr. Robert Artwohl explaining why we saw the arms stiffening upward.
“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”

This is from the same post discussing the speed of reflex reactions (I've underlined relevant passages):

"While human reaction times tend to require hundreds of milliseconds, "One of the fastest [neural feedback] loops is from arm sensors to spinal cord and back out to arm muscles: it takes 110 milliseconds for feedback corrections to be made to an arm movement." (William H. Calvin, "The unitary hypothesis: A common neural circuitry for novel manipulations, language, plan-ahead, and throwing?" in Tools, Language, and Cognition in Human Evolution, edited by Kathleen R. Gibson and Tim Ingold. Cambridge University Press, pp. 230-250, [1993].)

So there could already be a reaction of a subject's arms in as early as 110 milliseconds, the equivalent of two Zapruder frames. But, of course, with JFK and Gov. Connally shot between 223 and 224, we should not be able to discern a significant reaction before frame 226. While only a few milliseconds later, this would still be too late.

However, an experiment cited by conspiracist Milicent Cranor demonstrates that even less time may be required.

Cranor summarizes a study published in the British journal, Brain (Brown P, Rothwell JC, Thompson PD, Britton TC, Day BL, and Marsden CD. New observations on the normal auditory startle reflex in man. Brain 1991; 114:1891-1902):

Auditory Stimulus Response Times in Milliseconds (m/s)
The following figures come from a study by Brown et al, published in the British journal, Brain. The authors tested the latency period (time it takes to respond) of the auditory startle reflex in 12 healthy volunteers ranging in age from 18 to 80 years. While relaxing in a chair, the subjects were randomly treated about every 20 minutes to a tone burst of 124 decibels, the equivalent BANG! of a car backfire 20 feet away. The average latency period of the relevant muscle groups in milliseconds:

Neck: 58 m/s (range 40-136 m/s)
Paraspinal muscles: 60 m/s (range: 48-120 m/s)

Forearm Flexors: 82 m/s (range: 60-200 m/s)

Forearm Extensors: 73 m/s (range 62-173 m/s)

Thumb: 99 m/s (range 75-179 m/s)

Back of Hand: 99 m/s (range 72-176 m/s)

The authors concluded:

"The most generalized startle response to the standard sound stimulus employed consisted of eye closure, grimacing, neck flexion, trunk flexion, slight abduction of the arms, flexion of the elbows and pronation of the forearms. There was considerable variation in the degree to which this response was expressed, and in some subjects only eye closure and flexion of the neck was apparent."

[See Cranor, "Neurology and Jiggle Analysis"]

The experiment demonstrated that, in response to an auditory stimulus, quantifiable physical reactions can be observed occurring most quickly in muscles the shortest distance from the brain: in the neck as quickly as 40 milliseconds (less than one Zapruder frame), in the paraspinal muscles as quickly as 48 milliseconds (less than one Zapruder frame), in the forearm flexors as quickly as 60 milliseconds (slightly more than one Zapruder frame), in the forearm extensors as quickly as 62 milliseconds (slightly more than one Zapruder frame), in the thumb as quickly as 75 milliseconds, and in the back of the hand as quickly as 72 milliseconds.

This means that it is possible for JFK and Gov. Connally, if struck between frames 223 and 224, to display quantifiable reactions originating in the men's necks and paraspinal muscles — and, depending on how many milliseconds elapsed between the shot and the exposure of frame 224, possibly even their forearm flexors, forearm extensors, and hands — as early as frame 225."

The scientific studies and results presented by Cranor demonstrate that a reflex reaction can be detected in a time so short it is the equivalent of 2 Z-frames. Your personal and subjective opinion that this seems "not believable" is in error. These results come from a study by Brown et al, published in the British journal, Brain.

Do you now accept this scientific evidence that a physical reflex reaction can occur so quickly?

To accept your theory that JFK is NOT reacting to his neck wound prior to z226 one would have to explain the dramatic change from a smiling wave 1.5 seconds earlier to having curled hands and a look of horror on his face before he was shot. Was the clairvoyant President steeling himself for the bullet he was about to receive?

"...a look of horror on his face..."

 
Some of the things you come up with are priceless.

"...having curled hands..."

What on earth are you talking about?

[Dan O'meara]

We have seen film proof that both JFK and JBC are making extremely rapid movements just as they emerge from behind the Stemmons sign [Reply#1087, page 136].
Scientific proof had been presented that a detectable reflex reaction can occur within 2 Z-frames [Reply#1103]

What frame does JBC first show signs of reacting?
It seems clear, to me at least, that JBC is showing no signs of a physical reaction in z223, the picture below.
This appears to be the same position and posture he has before he passes behind the Stemmons sign.



After this frame JBC's physical appearance and appearance begin to rapidly change:

In 1976 the Itek Corporation, specialists in photographic analysis, looked at the issue of exactly when Connally was showing a reaction to being hit. The following is their report.
By frame 232-234 there is strong evidence that the Governor is reacting to a significant effect on his body; or from other data, to a bullet wound. He placed the time of his reaction at 234. We studied the film in this area to determine if there were any striking changes in his physical appearance which could be interpreted as the onset of a reaction. Five photo analysts studied the original film from frames 222-240. They all concluded independently that somewhere between 223-226 there are signs of the beginning of a significant change in the governor's position and appearance. Some of their comments are paraphrased below.
— As Connally first clears the obscuring sign on frame 221, his facial features are not discernable or distinct. Frames 222 and 223 show no unusual action and Connally's face and features remain frozen (normal). With frame 224, I observe a slight grimace, a minor body twist, a slight arching of the back and a rearward head motion. These reactions continue on frame 225 which includes a slight hiking up in the seat. By frame 226 Connally's head is turned forward which I judged to be a rapid reaction. Frame 227 yields no information due to the high amount of smear, but the following frames 228, 9 and 30 indicate a rapid reaction of the hand holding the Stetson which was flicked up and down quickly.
— I observe a rotation of the Governor's body from right to left beginning at frame 223. It isn't obvious that this is significant relative to the study objective, however I also observe what I would consider an involuntary and unusual motion of his right hand and arm at 225. Before 225, his hand is hidden from Zapruder's view, down below the edge of the door. At 225-226 it can be seen to travel rapidly upward until it is about level with his chin in 228. From 228-230 he flips his hat rapidly. At 229 it appears upside down in his hand with the thin edge of the brim extending toward Zapruder. By 230 the hat has flipped so that one can now see into it. This all takes place within less than 1/3 of a second so it would appear to be somewhat unusual.

— At frame #223 he is turned in the jump seat sitting well into the car. I noticed a facial expression changing between #223 and 224 to a grimacing look. His body has moved forward (toward the edge of the car) with his right shoulder twisting to his left and downward. Between frames #225 and 226 a rapid motion of the Governor's right hand begins, i.e. #225 - his hand inside of car, #226 - his Stetson hat appears over the edge of the car, #228 - the hat is up in front of his chin concealing it. At #229 and 230 he flips his hat from edge on to a view of looking at the inside of it.

Source: "John Kennedy Assassination Film Analysis" — Itek Corporation, May 2, 1976, pp. 36-39 Emphasis in original.
(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jbchit.htm)


From z223 to z224 certain changes are noticeable, including a slight rotation or twist in JBC's upright position, his right shoulder moving slightly forward and downward and his left shoulder moving slightly upward and backwards.
It is also noticeable that there is a radical bulging of the right side of JBC's suit jacket between the 2 frames. The same side the bullet exits through:



This is the moment JBC's extremely rapid movement begins, from a resting, relaxed position, resulting in his Stetson being raised up to his face from down by his side in one third of a second.



The Zapruder film reveals when JFK begins his extreme and rapid reaction.
As he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign his LEFT ARM is down by his side. It is down by his side as he passes behind the Stemmons sign. The pic below shows his LEFT ARM down by his side in z193 [the last clear frame before he passes behind the Stemmons sign] alongside z224, the first clear frame of JFK as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.



From being down at his side, JFK's LEFT ARM suddenly rockets upwards. It is an incredibly rapid movement. The gif below shows the beginning of this incredibly rapid movement:



z224 shows the left arm down by the side. The left elbow is hidden below the edge of the door.
z225 shows a slight movement of the left arm but the left elbow is still below the edge of the door.
z226 shows the left arm is definitely beginning to rise as the left elbow comes above the edge of the door.

From being down by his side in z224, JFK's LEFT ARM shoots up to this extreme position in z232



This movement occurs in 0.44 seconds. It is an extreme and rapid reaction that begins at z225.
The Z-film proves both men had extreme and rapid reactions beginning at the same moment from a resting position.

[Andrew Mason]

You think Linda Willis could see through people? She remembered a sign but it must have been the Thornton sign. Linda would have become familiar with her father's famous photo with just the Stemmons Frwy sign in it.

She said the first shot occurred when the President's car was between her and the Stemmons sign. Do you think the people in front of her blocked her view of the car or the Stemmons sign? Do you think she had no idea where the car was when she heard the first shot? She said it was between her and the Stemmons sign. Do you think she had no idea where JFK was in the car when the car was between her and the Stemmons sign? 

She then saw the President reacting to the first shot: "When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward," (7 H 498).  She was clear in her interviews. such as this one, that there was no shot before this (she states this at 5:50 in the linked interview).

Rosemary's quarter-second visual check. Most people seeking the source of a strange noise look longer than that. Rosemary begins slowing and looking to her right (and away from the limousine) long before your cherry-pick. GIF animation is slowed down to quarter-speed.
Did somebody pay this witness?

Well, she is coming to the end of the sidewalk and someone may have called to her to stop.  She does not stop until z199. But she does turn her head noticeable backward at z204-207.  We don't have any sprocket view until z212 and she is still looking back.  She then turns back to watch the President's car from z214-217. It is hardly surprising that she would quickly look away and then return to looking at the main attraction?

[Dan O'meara]

I simply can't believe you two are still going on about Rosemary Willis.
It is genuinely unbelievable.
Let's not forget that this is the same Rosemary Willis who said that when she turned towards the book depository she could see Oswald "as clear as day".
Let's not forget that this is the same Rosemary Willis who said she saw a gunman firing from the sewer!
Let's not forget this is the same Rosemary Willis who saw gun smoke coming from the grassy knoll.
Whose first mention of stopping because she heard a shot was in 1979 - 16 years after the event.
Whose count of the the number of shots went from 3 to 4 to 6.

And let's not forget, the little girl who heard the first shot while she was running along, slowed down and turned to where she heard the shot coming from [the TSBD building], all of which is shown in the Z-film. While, but a few feet away, a carload of Secret Service agents show no sign of reacting to the same shot, also shown in the Z-film.
Hmmmm.... taxi for Common Sense!
 

[Andrew Mason]

I'm showing people who are sane and rational--and not wedded to your lamebrain pet theory--that Linda Willis's view of the limousine and most of the Stemmons Frwy Sign was blocked during the time frame you claim. Linda had a much better view when the limousine was between her and the Thornton Sign, a few seconds before her father snapped his No.5 picture.

Not up to your usual rigour, Jerry.  I expected a fancy overhead diagram showing how two people 15-20 feet ahead of her would block an entire 21 foot limousine 30 feet in front of them for the entire time it was passing in front of them.  Go for it. Here's mine:

Blue circle shows where Linda Willis was standing at z197.

Top of blue line is 5'4" above the surface. This gives 5 feet for her and 4" for the sidewalk. You can see that neither her father nor Croft block her view at z197. She had a completely clear view of the limo and the Stemmons sign and would have been able to see how JFK reacted to the first shot at that point.

I think she merely misremembered the particular sign she saw because she had become more familiar with her father's famous photo that has the Stemmons sign prominently featured. She certainly can't see anything of the President in the Z190s and beyond, let alone him grab at his throat. I don't believe she lived near Dealey Plaza or went there regularly as a teenager.

We are supposed to accept your speculation that she got mixed up on the sign?  Do you have any evidence? 

Z212 doesn't even show Rosemary's head as it was in Z212 because of the splice. Z213 is too blurred to determine anything. Personally I believe I see a good amount of flesh tone on Rosemary's hood in Z213.

Why don't you just admit that as the blur resolves, Rosemary's head is already turned towards the car?

I am not the only one who sees Rosemary turning her head from z214-217.  Roberdeau makes special mention of the turn:

[John Iacoletti]

Any witness statement that Jerry doesn't like must be due to "cajoling" from conspiracy theorists.

[Andrew Mason]

When they go from three shots from the Depository to four-or-five shots with the head shot coming from the knoll, how else to explain it?

You are referring to an interview given nearly 40 years after the events.  This is after she has read and, apparently, been persuaded by all sorts of conspiracy kooks and even acted a part in Stone's movie JFK. Besides, we are not using her evidence for the direction or number of shots.

[Dan O'meara]

I let a lot of Mason's posts go by. Mason and you engage much more than I do.

The father also went CT-Simple. He originally thought all three shots came from the Depository. Years of cajoling from Loons would make anyone doubt what they saw. Doctors at Parkland recall Lifton trying to get them to confirm something they never saw.

I watched a few interviews with Linda Willis and she's totally into conspiracy and shots from the front. She said her father in 1964 noticed a train was removed from the No.5 photo. I doubt if that allegation came out earlier than the 1990s. But Linda has evolved what-to-her is an authentic memory of that. Not unusual as the human mind is not a digital camera.

I thought the Willis's were a nice common-sense Texan family. But hasn't the whole state gotten more CT-simple over the decades?

Did anybody interview her before 1979? Probably her first interviews were not influenced by CTs.

In any event, too bad for Mason and you that Rosemary slows down and looks to her right seconds before your theories would like.

Adults--even SS agents--would be more inclined to dismiss the first shot as a backfire or firecracker. Rosemary was very young and the loud report would have been more novel to her.

In any event, too bad for Mason and you that Rosemary slows down and looks to her right seconds before your theories would like.

Why?
What does Rosemary Willis have to do with any theory I'm proposing?
It's you and Andrew who are cherry-picking from her various dubious statements in order to prop up your own defunct theories.
It's embarrassing to watch.

Adults--even SS agents--would be more inclined to dismiss the first shot as a backfire or firecracker. Rosemary was very young and the loud report would have been more novel to her.

This is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever posted.
If you'd bother to read some of the testimonies of the Secret Service agents in the Presidential back-up car you'd find some of them reacted immediately to the first shot. The reason they are not seen reacting in the Z-film is because the first shot isn't until z222/z223, at which time they are no longer in the film [see OP of this thread]
Your defense of little Rosemary's superior shot-recognition capabilities is beyond desperate.