The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

Blah, Blah, Blah, same old wore out information that absolutely leads nowhere.

Quite a discussion. Neither of you can even provide any evidence at all that there ever was a third shot. Let alone when this phantom shot occurred.   

All the evidence indicates there were only two shots. Eyewitness testimony is all about just two shots. The physical evidence is all about two shots. Both the WC and HSCA state the witnesses were influenced by the media into inflating the number of shots. You can't place the bullet wound in JBC's back unless the bullet first passes through JFK's neck.

It does not take much imagination to understand the assassination when you realize the answer is there were only two shots fired.                                             

[John Iacoletti]

Like Dan can hear Connally screaming “no, no, no” in the Z film. 

[Sean Kneringer]

The Connally Head Swing!
Was that a 1960's dance craze?
Please enlighten us - when was the Connally Head Swing?

Z157 to Z170

Lemme guess: you think the throat shot was the first shot.

[Zeon Mason]

Looking at Z-223 to Z224 frames , the right elbow of JFK appears to me to BEGIN to move from a comfortable rest position at Z223 to START an upward movement at Z224.

There might be some more analytical measuring methods that already exist , in videos of other threads to show just how closely in sync is the START  of the  motion of JFK s right elbow with the START of Connallys right shoulder beginning to turn counterclockwise , an effect caused by angular momentum imparted by the bullet impact to Connelly right side.

So it seems improbable that the shot was fired earlier than at z223  and the  body movements in both men are due to delayed nervous system response. The reason being , that it violates a  basic physics principle of one mass impacting another mass, which results in immediate transfer of momentum from one to the other.

[Andrew Mason]

Looking at Z-223 to Z224 frames , the right elbow of JFK appears to me to BEGIN to move from a comfortable rest position at Z223 to START an upward movement at Z224.

There might be some more analytical measuring methods that already exist , in videos of other threads to show just how closely in sync is the START  of the  motion of JFK s right elbow with the START of Connallys right shoulder beginning to turn counterclockwise , an effect caused by angular momentum imparted by the bullet impact to Connelly right side.

So it seems improbable that the shot was fired earlier than at z223  and the  body movements in both men are due to delayed nervous system response. The reason being , that it violates a  basic physics principle of one mass impacting another mass, which results in immediate transfer of momentum from one to the other.

There is, of course, another explanation to what is seen: what JBC and Nellie said he did after the first shot.  He said he turned in response to hearing the first shot.  His right hand is down by his right side holding the stetson.  In order to turn right, which he starts doing at about z231, he had to raise his right arm and lean forward so he had room to turn.

The momentum transfer begins on impact.  And the amount of momentum transferred depends on what happens during its transit through the body.  That depends on the magnitude of the force and duration of the force.  The bullet hit the fifth rib and bent it in (fracturing close to the spine) and then blasted through the rib driving bone shards down into the lower lobe of the right lung.  JBC described it as a forceful impact and Nellie observed him recoil from it and said she immediately reached out and pulled him down.  She is describing actions that we do not see until after z270 when she is looking right at her husband.

[Mitch Todd]

[...]
So it seems improbable that the shot was fired earlier than at z223  and the  body movements in both men are due to delayed nervous system response. The reason being , that it violates a  basic physics principle of one mass impacting another mass, which results in immediate transfer of momentum from one to the other.

While conservation of momentum applies here, it's advisable to consider the magnitude of the resulting impact.

The Edgewood Arsenal guys figured that the bullet lost about 150m/s passing through Connally's body. A rifle bullet has a mass of the order of 10g = 0.010kg. The resulting momentum loss would be 150m/s * 0.01kg = 1.5kg*m/s

Connally's torso and head combined would have a mass on the order of 50kg. Since the post-impact momentum change of Connally's torso would be equal to the momentum lost by the bullet, the bullet would change the movement of Connally's upper body by 1.5kg*m/s / 50kg = 0.03 m/s. 0.03m/s is the same as 1.18 inches per second, or about 0.06 inches per zapruder frame. Connally is already moving around under his own power at the time, and the Zapruder film is grainy and lacks detailed resolution, so such a change of motion would be extraordinarily difficult to spot. Maybe even impossible under the circumstances.

[Dan O'meara]

Yes, but you are basing JBC's reaction time on the same bullet striking him at z222/223. And that is based on JFK beginning his reaction at z226 and not before. I am simply pointing out that JFK is already reacting at z223 so the shot was earlier.

JFK's obvious reaction to being shot through the throat is for his hands to fly up towards the area of his throat, which is completely understandable.
IS IT YOUR CONTENTION THAT JFK'S RIGHT HAND IS ALREADY IN THE PROCESS OF THIS REACTION AT Z223?

Right. We can all see that. His reaction is developing as JBC realizes what he has just witnessed hearing.   JFK changes his reaction as well a few frames earlier.  He experiences the effects of not being able to breathe. That does not tell you when the bullet hit. A person breathes about once every 4 seconds. We know this wound interfered with his breathing

The bullet that passed through JFK passed through a collection of nerves called the Brachial Plexus, nerves that control the motor functions of the arms and hands. Evidence has been presented in this thread that damage to these nerves, by the bullet directly or the effect of cavitation, would cause an immediate reflex reaction involving the arms and hands. Exactly as we see JFK experience.
The notion that these reactions are an effect of JFK having breathing difficulties is something you've completely made up.
Your notion that JBC's incredibly rapid and extreme movements are due to him being upset that the day is being spoiled is up to your usual level of made up nonsense.

Unlike JFK who is not calm and composed in z224. There is a dramatic change in his expression and body.  JBC is still processing what he has just heard.
That is where JBC begins to show a reaction.  Mind you, he has already turned forward and may have been looking around.  But to suggest that he starts reacting at z228 to being hit in the back is where we strongly disagree.
I say that you cannot conclude that JFK has not started his reaction well before z224. You say he looks the same in z193 and z224. We'll have to simply say we don't agree.

Just to clear up a couple of your usual unintentional "senior" misunderstandings:

I've never said JBC begins reacting at z228

I've never said JFK looks the same in z193 and z224. I've said that JFK's LEFT ARM is down by his side in z193 and z224, that is to say, JFK's LEFT ARM is down by his side as he passes behind the Stemmons sign and as he emerges from behind the sign. In a fraction of a second his LEFT ARM suddenly rockets up into an extreme position.
DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THE FILM EVIDENCE THAT JFK'S LEFT ARM IS DOWN BY HIS SIDE IN Z193 AND Z224?

I have been saying forever that he was NOT shot in the back there. I am saying it is likely that the bullet through JFK struck his thigh. He said he never felt the thigh wound. It should not surprise you to learn that people often do not feel being shot.
Such as JBC not feeling the thigh wound?  Not only would that not be unusual, that is exactly what the evidence says: he did not feel the thigh wound.

Choose between one of these two possibilities:
1) JBC is shot in the leg and he simply doesn't notice it.

2) JBC doesn't notice his thigh wound because, at the very same moment, he has suffered a hugely traumatic, life-threatening abdominal injury sending his body into shock.

I choose option 2), you choose option 1)

That is what the evidence says. All the evidence says that JBC was hit in the back on the second shot. The second shot has not yet occurred when JBC starts his reaction at z228.  Nellie said he uttered "oh, no, no" before the second shot that she saw him recoil from.  JBC admitted that he said it not because he was hit but because of the tragedy that he realized was unfolding.

"All the evidence says that JBC was hit in the back on the second shot."

 
You funny.
is that what ALL the evidence says, is it?

[Dan O'meara]

Blah, Blah, Blah, same old wore out information that absolutely leads nowhere.

Quite a discussion. Neither of you can even provide any evidence at all that there ever was a third shot. Let alone when this phantom shot occurred.   

All the evidence indicates there were only two shots. Eyewitness testimony is all about just two shots. The physical evidence is all about two shots. Both the WC and HSCA state the witnesses were influenced by the media into inflating the number of shots. You can't place the bullet wound in JBC's back unless the bullet first passes through JFK's neck.

It does not take much imagination to understand the assassination when you realize the answer is there were only two shots fired.                                             

Neither of you can even provide any evidence at all that there ever was a third shot. Let alone when this phantom shot occurred.  

Over 160 witnesses reported hearing three clearly audible shots. That's over three quarters of the 200+ witnesses asked about the shots.
Clearly this doesn't constitute evidence to you Jack.
We just have you're usual blah blah blah about how all these people got it wrong.

All the evidence indicates there were only two shots.

 

Again with what ALL the evidence says, you're as bad as Andrew.