The First Shot

[Jack Nessan]

Thanks to you, Jack, it's another big fat "yes"
Yet another piece of confirmation that the first shot was at z222/z223.
Breaking the various witness statements down to a most basic, salient fact - had the limo passed the witness position at the time of the first shot.
Collating this basic element from multiple witness statements then comparing the witness positions to the known position of the limo at various Z-frames and Hey Presto! - The Nessan Conjunction.

This could have been settled at the beginning if people like yourself were open to reason.
This thread has consisted mainly of dealing with people peddling their own pet theories and none have stood up to the barrage of evidence and arguments presented in this thread. But none - not one - will change one iota of their theories, regardless of how smashed to pieces these theories are. Not a single person has ever changed a single detail about their theories, even in the face of evidence unequivocally destroying that theory.

And here we go again. 145 pages and suddenly we have a new contender for when the first shot occurred - z210 to z214
Have you always thought this Jack or are you just pulling this out of thin air?

A better location for the first shot would be Z210 to Z214 based on Zapruder Frames.

So, "based on Zapruder Frames" a better location for the first shot would be z210 to z214.
Obviously, at this time in the Z-film both JFK and JBC are obscured by the Stemmons sign, so I have to ask - what is it in the Z-frames you are basing this moment as the first shot on.
Remember, you said "based on Zapruder Frames".

Also, at z210 to z214 the limo has not passed witnesses Templin, Brandt, Newman, Burney and Dishong, who all stated the limo had passed them before the first shot rang out.
So your new proposition for when the first shot occurs fails the Nessan Conjunction.

Then why are you disputing that the first shot occurred at z222/z223?

Yawn.
Start your own thread about it. it's really easy to do.

This is quite an important detail as far as the Nessan Conjunction is concerned. Why do you propose the Bronson pic is at z229

What is he basing that on?

[b]Thanks to you, Jack, it's another big fat "yes"
Yet another piece of confirmation that the first shot was at z222/z223[/b]

No

All of these witness statements were originally posted on page 10. For whatever reason you chose to ignore them. The actual location of the actual shot will never be known because the sign obscured the view. The number of shots is important, but the actual precise location of the first shot is not. He was shot after Z210 and definitely before Z224. Everything after that is just interpretation.

I know he was not shot at Z223 because he is reacting to having been shot at Z223. An average person’s reaction time to stimuli is estimated to be approximately 0.5 seconds or 10 Z frames. You are equating JFK reacting to having been shot as being the same time as him being shot. It is a general rule of have a ½ second reaction time from wanting to react and actually reacting.

The Limo’s dimensions are 21.25 feet long with a 13- foot wheelbase. Based on the Bronson photo there is approximately 15 feet between the Chisms and Jean Newman. Use everything you can to estimate not just the Z frames. The Z frames were the most helpful.

Roberdeau’s map, that you posted, has the Z224 “JFK already reacting by Z224-Z225 to bullets impact” wording. It is surprising you did not notice this wording as it was located right by the Z225 symbol. I would think you would have to have edited his statement out before you posted the map. Remember this is where he is reacting to having been shot, not where he was shot.

Unfortunately, the conversation always revolves around all the shots not just the first. You need to go back and read the first pages of the thread. You believe you are controlling the conversation to just the first shot, but you are not, based on the early missed shot theory being an attempt to create longer time for the firing of three shots. Simply put, the proponents of this theory are trying to compensate for the time to work the bolt. Only Two shots having been fired is the answer and answers all questions and scenarios. Understanding this simple concept is actually a letdown given there are 60 years of imaginative conspiracy theories that are definitely more interesting than LHO fired two shots -- end of story. 

Someone once had a thread about the number of shots. The fact there is absolutely no proof of three shots pretty much ended the thread after a few pages. It was all about witness statement interpretations because there is not any physical evidence of a third shot.

Believing in three shots is faith based and that is all. Shot three as a miss is actually strange given the amount of witnesses who state there wasn’t a shot after the headshot.

[Zeon Mason]

Generally, so far , I’m still in agreement with Dan that the 1st shot that 2/3 majority of witnesses heard , was at Z223.

However, this is contingent upon how the 1st shot struck JFK.

If it’s an earlier shot at Z190-200then it has to be a shot that went thru only a very minimal amount of mass, such as thru the neck area only, such that there is no discernible movement of JFKs body forward. The bullet entered and exited so quickly that virtually no transfer of momentum occurred.

The resultant movements by JFKs arms and his lurch forward at Z-233-226 therefore are theoretically delayed nervous system response.

If this is basically Andrew Masons theory then the SBT is not viable and  a 2nd shot that missed JFK , yet hit Connally requires TWO shooters , because Mr Jerry Organs computer diagrams of the position of JFK relative to Connally  do not allow a 2nd shot from the SE window angle to be able to hit Connally without having passed thru some part of JFKs body.

The simpler theory is that the Z223 is the 1st shot and hit JFK lower than the neck , and because the bullet went thru a larger mass of the body , there WAS transfer of momentum occurring that causes the lurch forward of JFK as well as the counterclockwise turn of Connallys right shoulder when that SAME bullet entered the back of Connally.

The problem However. Is that an SBT straight line trajectory does NOT work for this scenario either, as the Beyond Conspiracy experiment showed, the bullet entered the back of the JFK replica model and exited much lower than the throat , actually exiting thru approximately the right upper chest area of the JFK model.

It leaves that the SBT trajectory line was NOT straight and the bullet must have had some % of zig zagging occurring after striking JFK in the back , and as it zagged thru the body upward slightly and then thru the neck, there was enough momentum transferred by the bullet to cause the lurch forward from Z-223-226.

For Andrew Masons trajectory lines to work, for a 2nd shot that independently struck Connally , Mr. Masons diagram of the position of JFK having his right side arm and shoulder further inward so as to allow a shot just past JFK , seems not as substantiated by the Z film frames as does Jerry Organs diagrams that show JFKs right arm resting on the outer edge of the door.

Even in a 2 shooter scenario, and there was a 1st shot just thru the throat of JFK that did not transfer any momentum, and which shot disappeared onto grass by the manhole cover or struck the curb near Tague, then what explanation for the autopsy photo showing a hole in the BACK of JFK?

[Andrew Mason]

For Andrew Masons trajectory lines to work, for a 2nd shot that independently struck Connally , Mr. Masons diagram of the position of JFK having his right side arm and shoulder further inward so as to allow a shot just past JFK , seems not as substantiated by the Z film frames as does Jerry Organs diagrams that show JFKs right arm resting on the outer edge of the door.

There is a lot of evidence that the second shot struck Connally: the Connallys, Gayle Newman for example. Dave Powers, Wm. Greer also indicate that the second shot struck in the car. And James Tague also said he was hit on the second shot which means the second shot hit something before and a fragment struck the curb. Geo. Hickey said that the second shot seemed to miss JFK because he saw JFK's hair on the right side of his head fly up on the second shot. Keep in mind that JFK had moved quite far to the left by this time (z270), as Dave Powers mentioned. His right arm was definitely not on the outer edge of the car.

With JFK leaning to the left at z270, a shot just to JFK's right side goes directly into the right side of Gov. Connally.

[Dan O'meara]

[b]Thanks to you, Jack, it's another big fat "yes"
Yet another piece of confirmation that the first shot was at z222/z223[/b]

No

I am presenting a method by which the location and timing of the first shot can be pin-pointed with a large degree of accuracy:

Focusing on the witness testimony of those closest to the limo at the time of the shooting.
Stripping their various testimonies down to one salient point - had JFK passed their position or not at the time of the first shot.
Establishing the position of these witnesses on a schematic that also shows us the position of JFK at various Z-frames.

By doing this we come to the realisation that all previous theories regarding when the first shot happened are refuted with the exception of my own theory - a first shot strike of JFK at z222/z223.
It is customary for someone opposing this method to critique it - what are it's weaknesses, it's strengths, where might I be going wrong with the theory, what can be improved.
Instead you simply write the word, "No".
No counter-evidence to support  an argument, no evidence offered whatsoever, just your opinion, seemingly based on nothing.

All of these witness statements were originally posted on page 10. For whatever reason you chose to ignore them.

I simply didn't realise the importance of them at the time.
This whole thread could've ended around then because I believe this evidence regarding when the first shot happened is really strong and very difficult to argue against [in a sane way, that actually involves providing evidence to support a counter-argument, rather than just blurting out an unsupported opinion.]
It's such a simple and obvious way to pinpoint where and when the first shot occurred that i'm embarrassed it took me so long to see it.
But it's better late than never, and I have you to thank for opening my eyes to this very powerful confirmation of my proposal for when the first shot occurred.

The actual location of the actual shot will never be known because the sign obscured the view. The number of shots is important, but the actual precise location of the first shot is not. He was shot after Z210 and definitely before Z224. Everything after that is just interpretation.

Do you know what, Jack? Your big pronouncements, unsupported by any evidence, are starting to get a little boring.

He was shot after Z210 and definitely before Z224

What evidence are you providing to support this statement? In a previous post you wrote:

A better location for the first shot would be Z210 to Z214 based on Zapruder Frames.

No evidence to support this claim, just a big pronouncement.
I knew this was utter garbage because both JFK and JBC were behind the Stemmons sign at this time, so I wrote:

So, "based on Zapruder Frames" a better location for the first shot would be z210 to z214.
Obviously, at this time in the Z-film both JFK and JBC are obscured by the Stemmons sign, so I have to ask - what is it in the Z-frames you are basing this moment as the first shot on?
Remember, you said "based on Zapruder Frames".

Unsurprisingly you failed to answer.
The question still stands - what are you basing this big pronouncement on?

I know he was not shot at Z223 because he is reacting to having been shot at Z223.

Yet another big pronouncement with no evidence to back it up.
And more utter nonsense.
JFK can't even be seen in z223!!
Yet Jack can see behind the sign, he can see JFK and JBC get shot behind the sign and he can see JFK reacting behind the sign!
Amazing.
What is this big pronouncement based on?

An average person’s reaction time to stimuli is estimated to be approximately 0.5 seconds or 10 Z frames. You are equating JFK reacting to having been shot as being the same time as him being shot. It is a general rule of have a ½ second reaction time from wanting to react and actually reacting.

And yet another big pronouncement with no evidence to back it up

It is a general rule of have a ½ second reaction time from wanting to react and actually reacting.


Is it?
Is it really?
I've never heard of this "general rule".
Is it something you've just made up, by any chance?

I found this information in a few seconds on Google:

“The average reaction time for a visual stimulus is about 250 milliseconds. The average reaction time for an auditory stimulus is about 170 milliseconds and for a touch stimulus 150 milliseconds.” [https://www.onaverage.co.uk/other-averages/average-reaction-time]

150 milliseconds for touch - that's 3 Z-frames.
Do you do any research?
More importantly, the bullet passes through the Brachial Plexus [something I researched] directly damaging JFK's central nervous system, causing a rapid reflex action:

"A reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus. A reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex

Also, in Reply#1103, I provided scientific evidence that a reflex reaction can be detected within 2 Z-frames. This evidence was published in the British journal, Brain (Brown P, Rothwell JC, Thompson PD, Britton TC, Day BL, and Marsden CD. New observations on the normal auditory startle reflex in man. Brain 1991; 114:1891-1902):
I have provided scientific expertise to back up my claim that a physical reflex response can be detected in 2 Z-frames.
What have you provided?

And just to help you out, here's a little research done on your behalf.
Your half second "general rule" is not a reference to how quick a reflex action is, it's a reference to how quickly the human mind becomes consciously aware of a sensory experience:

"Human thought takes time to form, and so the “right now” that we’re experiencing inside our skulls is always a little later than what’s going on in the outside world. It takes 500 milliseconds, or half a second, for sensory information from the outside world to be incorporated into conscious experience."

[https://nymag.com/speed/2016/12/what-is-the-speed-of-thought.html#:~:text=Human%20thought%20takes%20time%20to,be%20incorporated%20into%20conscious%20experience.]

From the above information we can conclude that a person shot through at z222/z223 could be showing a physical reflex action by z225/z226 but they wouldn't be consciously aware of being shot until around z331/z332.

The Limo’s dimensions are 21.25 feet long with a 13- foot wheelbase. Based on the Bronson photo there is approximately 15 feet between the Chisms and Jean Newman. Use everything you can to estimate not just the Z frames. The Z frames were the most helpful.

??

Roberdeau’s map, that you posted, has the Z224 “JFK already reacting by Z224-Z225 to bullets impact” wording. It is surprising you did not notice this wording as it was located right by the Z225 symbol. I would think you would have to have edited his statement out before you posted the map. Remember this is where he is reacting to having been shot, not where he was shot.

Once again, what does Roberdeau base this on?

Unfortunately, the conversation always revolves around all the shots not just the first. You need to go back and read the first pages of the thread. You believe you are controlling the conversation to just the first shot, but you are not, based on the early missed shot theory being an attempt to create longer time for the firing of three shots. Simply put, the proponents of this theory are trying to compensate for the time to work the bolt. Only Two shots having been fired is the answer and answers all questions and scenarios. Understanding this simple concept is actually a letdown given there are 60 years of imaginative conspiracy theories that are definitely more interesting than LHO fired two shots -- end of story. 

Unfortunately, the conversation always revolves around all the shots not just the first.

Not in a thread entitled THE FIRST SHOT!

Someone once had a thread about the number of shots. The fact there is absolutely no proof of three shots pretty much ended the thread after a few pages. It was all about witness statement interpretations because there is not any physical evidence of a third shot.

What a lovely story.

Believing in three shots is faith based and that is all. Shot three as a miss is actually strange given the amount of witnesses who state there wasn’t a shot after the headshot.

What about the witnesses who state there was a shot after the head-shot?

If you want to critique the method I'm using [that you inspired] to locate the moment of the first shot, let's hear it.
If you have a claim to make, why not back it up with some kind of evidence.

[Andrew Mason]

Mason's Voodoo Geometry.

I asked you to show the views of your 3D model, (ie. without changing anything except the viewing position) from Zapruder's position:



to the view from the SN:



You have not done that yet.  Moreover, your view from the SN shows the bullet through JFK's neck striking JBC near the spine, no where near the right armpit. I am waiting.

You are in an occupation where lying and distorting reality is rewarded.

Actually, in my profession, lying and distorting reality will get you disbarred.

[Zeon Mason]

@ Jerry Organ: could you find and post the image of the 2 torso models experiment that they ( Gary Mack and company) set up to conduct an actual firing a 6.5 mm MC bullet from an MC rifle?

I’m referring to a red line that was used in a still frame from the video of that experiment that illustrates the although Altgens bullet  DID travel along a straight line thru both torsos, that the exit point in the JFK torso was NOT at throat level but rather much lower at approx the upper right chest level.

So imo , this  does Not prove the theoretical computer model that Myers constructed that has the bullet exiting the throat.

It DOES however convince me without doubt that a 6.5 mm MC bullet fired at 2000 ft /sec muzzle volocity can go completely thru 2 human bodies.

Also, even if it can be demonstrated that the Myers model is correct via some other experiment, the entrance hole in JFK that the autopsy photo shows, is low enough that the bullet is traveling thru more mass of body than just the throat mass and therefore, there is probably enough momentum transferred by the bullet to cause the lurch forward of JFK at approx Z224-226.

Andrew Masons  ( no relation heh) proposition that it’s not until Z270 that JBC is hit does not explain the sudden forward and counterclockwise motion of of JBCs right shoulder that occurs at Z-224-226 and the quick flap of the jacket lapel also that Myers identified.

It’s very unlikely that a “wind gust” caused that lapel flap so coincidental to instant that JBCs right shoulder also is turning rapidly.

[Andrew Mason]

All I can figure is that you may be referring to the 2004 documentary "JFK Beyond the Magic Bullet". I don't think it involved Mack, Myers or an "Altgens bullet".

Here is a clip from one of the shot attempts by the group Anatomical Surrogates Technology for the program "JFK Beyond the Magic Bullet".

I noticed that they moved the trajectory from the SN so that the SN is directly behind the limo for the SBT:


 It was not in that position. The trajectory at z224 is still 9 degrees right to left through JFK. They have it going left to right in order to strike JBC's right armpit.  There is also the problem is that it is not possible to match the wounds in Connally using that trajectory in the position that Connally is in at z224.

[Andrew Mason]

You asked for : "You have yet to show the view from Zapruder's position of the two men in the car as you have positioned them."

Nothing about some view from the SN window. Here then is the approximate view from the SN window for the frame Z223.

You won't be getting anything from me if you don't stop insinuating I would change models for different views in the same graphic. I have never done that, and such an underhanded tactic speaks to your "profession" as a defense attorney.

I was not insinuating anything. I just thought your angle to the SN was wrong.  Your drawings seemed incorrect because the angle to Zapruder is 40 degrees at z223 and if you apply that to your diagram it does not look like Zapruder's z223 view.  I was just trying to figure out where they are wrong.  Now that you have provided it, it appears that your limo model is inaccurate.  You have the rear seating compartment too far forward and a bit too long.  The roof support bar and glass side panel too is too far forward of JBC.

This shows the problem with your car model by comparing it to the actual measured dimensions provided by Hess & Eisenhardt:



You have the angle of the car to a line from the SN at 8.1 degrees, which is a bit too low (at z223) by about a degree, but since there is some uncertainty of about a degree as to the exact direction of the car heading at that point, I won't quibble.  At that direction, the angle of the sightline of Zapruder at z223 to the direction of the car is at most 40 degrees (I measure 39.3 degrees).  Your drawing puts that sight line (a 40 degree sightline to the left side of JBC's head passing just to the rear of the glass panel in front of JBC at z223) well to the right side of the head in your model. In order to make the green line to Zapruder's position pass to the left side of JBC's head you would need to move JBC to the right quite a bit as shown in the green arrow: