The First Shot

[Charles Collins]

I was not insinuating anything. I just thought your angle to the SN was wrong.  Your drawings seemed incorrect because the angle to Zapruder is 40 degrees at z223 and if you apply that to your diagram it does not look like Zapruder's z223 view.  I was just trying to figure out where they are wrong.  Now that you have provided it, it appears that your limo model is inaccurate.  You have the rear seating compartment too far forward and a bit too long.  The roof support bar and glass side panel too is too far forward of JBC.

This shows the problem with your car model by comparing it to the actual measured dimensions provided by Hess & Eisenhardt:



You have the angle of the car to a line from the SN at 8.1 degrees, which is a bit too low (at z223) by about a degree, but since there is some uncertainty of about a degree as to the exact direction of the car heading at that point, I won't quibble.  At that direction, the angle of the sightline of Zapruder at z223 to the direction of the car is at most 40 degrees (I measure 39.3 degrees).  Your drawing puts that sight line (a 40 degree sightline to the left side of JBC's head passing just to the rear of the glass panel in front of JBC at z223) well to the right side of the head in your model. In order to make the green line to Zapruder's position pass to the left side of JBC's head you would need to move JBC to the right quite a bit as shown in the green arrow:

Andrew, the glass panel you are referencing is sloping at an angle towards the centerline of the car. Therefore, from Zapruder’s angle, the rear edge of it appears to angle towards the front of the limo (from the bottom upwards) instead of appearing vertical. You have drawn your lines to the bottom corner of that glass panel. However JBC’s head is well above (in elevation) the bottom of the panel. Therefore you need to adjust your lines towards the front of the limo accordingly.

[Andrew Mason]

Andrew, the glass panel you are referencing is sloping at an angle towards the centerline of the car. Therefore, from Zapruder’s angle, the rear edge of it appears to angle towards the front of the limo (from the bottom upwards) instead of appearing vertical. You have drawn your lines to the bottom corner of that glass panel. However JBC’s head is well above (in elevation) the bottom of the panel. Therefore you need to adjust your lines towards the front of the limo accordingly.

You would be correct but for the fact that Jerry has the side glass panel and roof support too far forward by about 4.5 inches. I have marked the edge of the actual side glass and roof support with the red line.



 A 40 degree line from Zapruder through the top rear corner of the side glass goes several inches to the left side of JBC's head.  In Jerry's model, this sight line is shown by the lower green line, which slices through the left side of JBC's head (a difference of about 5 inches). A similar sight line from Zapruder through the bottom rear corner goes through the right jacket lapel of JBC.  In Jerry's model it slices through the torso at the right shoulder.   Jerry's model has to move about 5 inches to the car right to fit the sight lines.

Of course all of this would put the shot through JFK hitting JBC in the spine, which did not occur.   According to the preponderance of evidence, however, the first shot was after z186 and before z202. At z195, the angle from the SN to the car direction was over 13 degrees and JBC had his shoulders turned to the right.  And a first shot through JFK at that point, with JBC correctly positioned about 5 inches farther right than Jerry's model shows, has the bullet from JFK going to the left side of JBC.

[Zeon Mason]

Thanks@Jerry Organ. That was the video I had seen and that’s a clarifying point you made about the JFK torso not in the slouch position. That slight difference would most probably align the throat/neck exit hole a lot closer to Myers computer model.

I’m not sure it’s been resolved if the movement of JFKs body and arms from Z223-226 is caused by the momentum transfer of a bullet striking him at that instant or whether it’s a neurological delayed reaction from a bullet that struck earlier at Z195-210 or if it’s a combination of both.

[Charles Collins]

You would be correct but for the fact that Jerry has the side glass panel and roof support too far forward by about 4.5 inches. I have marked the edge of the actual side glass and roof support with the red line.



 A 40 degree line from Zapruder through the top rear corner of the side glass goes several inches to the left side of JBC's head.  In Jerry's model, this sight line is shown by the lower green line, which slices through the left side of JBC's head (a difference of about 5 inches). A similar sight line from Zapruder through the bottom rear corner goes through the right jacket lapel of JBC.  In Jerry's model it slices through the torso at the right shoulder.   Jerry's model has to move about 5 inches to the car right to fit the sight lines.

Of course all of this would put the shot through JFK hitting JBC in the spine, which did not occur.   According to the preponderance of evidence, however, the first shot was after z186 and before z202. At z195, the angle from the SN to the car direction was over 13 degrees and JBC had his shoulders turned to the right.  And a first shot through JFK at that point, with JBC correctly positioned about 5 inches farther right than Jerry's model shows, has the bullet from JFK going to the left side of JBC.

Your explanation doesn't make any sense to me. Also, the lower green line appears to be at about the mid-point of the side glass pane, not the top rear corner.

The issue appears to me to probably be with the scaled drawing. I will check it closer tomorrow. The view of Jerry's model at Z223 matches up well with the actual Zapruder frame 223. I overlaid one of the two images over the other and when sliding the opaque setting from 0% to 100% all the pertinent points match up.

[Dan O'meara]

You would be correct but for the fact that Jerry has the side glass panel and roof support too far forward by about 4.5 inches. I have marked the edge of the actual side glass and roof support with the red line.



 A 40 degree line from Zapruder through the top rear corner of the side glass goes several inches to the left side of JBC's head.  In Jerry's model, this sight line is shown by the lower green line, which slices through the left side of JBC's head (a difference of about 5 inches). A similar sight line from Zapruder through the bottom rear corner goes through the right jacket lapel of JBC.  In Jerry's model it slices through the torso at the right shoulder.   Jerry's model has to move about 5 inches to the car right to fit the sight lines.

Of course all of this would put the shot through JFK hitting JBC in the spine, which did not occur.   According to the preponderance of evidence, however, the first shot was after z186 and before z202. At z195, the angle from the SN to the car direction was over 13 degrees and JBC had his shoulders turned to the right.  And a first shot through JFK at that point, with JBC correctly positioned about 5 inches farther right than Jerry's model shows, has the bullet from JFK going to the left side of JBC.

According to the preponderance of evidence, however, the first shot was after z186 and before z202

 
It's good to see you've managed to hang on to your sense of humour.

[Dan O'meara]

Thanks@Jerry Organ. That was the video I had seen and that’s a clarifying point you made about the JFK torso not in the slouch position. That slight difference would most probably align the throat/neck exit hole a lot closer to Myers computer model.

I’m not sure it’s been resolved if the movement of JFKs body and arms from Z223-226 is caused by the momentum transfer of a bullet striking him at that instant or whether it’s a neurological delayed reaction from a bullet that struck earlier at Z195-210 or if it’s a combination of both.

The bullet passed through JFK without striking any bone and, as such, would've transferred very little momentum to his body.
His extreme and rapid movements are an almost instantaneous reflex action due to the nerve damage caused by the bullet passing through the Brachial Plexus.
The bullet strike was aat z222/z223 and the first detectable signs of a reaction begin around z225.

For a fuller description of this check out Reply#898 [pg 113] and Reply#1039 [pg 130]
Of particular interest are the comments by neurologist Dr Strully, explaining the process of muscle contraction, and the article posted by Brian Roselle

[Charles Collins]

Your explanation doesn't make any sense to me. Also, the lower green line appears to be at about the mid-point of the side glass pane, not the top rear corner.

The issue appears to me to probably be with the scaled drawing. I will check it closer tomorrow. The view of Jerry's model at Z223 matches up well with the actual Zapruder frame 223. I overlaid one of the two images over the other and when sliding the opaque setting from 0% to 100% all the pertinent points match up.

I will check it closer tomorrow.


Okay, I printed the drawing at 100% (not scaled to fit to page). The title of the drawing says it is 3/4"=1'-0". But, using an architectural scale ruler and the overall dimensions of the limo, I determined that it only printed at about 0.736 that size. So the pdf appears to be inaccurate to begin with. However, I began to measure the different dimensions shown with that architectural scale ruler. I figure that if the dimensions shown are reasonably accurate, they should all be at the same relative size relative to my actual measurements of the drawing. Sadly, for Andrew, there are a couple of dimensions that are way the heck off. Here is an image in which I circled the two wayward dimensions:



The measurements that I made for the above two red-circled dimensions are about 1.5 and 1.25 times larger than the dimensions shown. This causes the drawing to be inaccurate.

I then measured the dimensions that are located inside the outline of the limo. The measurements are all about the same relative size (as compared to the dimensions shown). However, there are a few measurements that are unreadable or are confusing. Based on an overlay of this drawing with Jerry's overhead view of his model (and the image that Jerry posted comparing his model with another photo of the limo, it appears to me that the passenger compartment was built close to these dimensions that are located inside the outline of the limo. However, due to the two dimensions that I circled which are significantly out of the scale of the drawing, I believe that the overall length of the drawing is exaggerated a bit compared with the actual limo. Therefore, Andrew's image (that appears to have the overall length of the limo drawing matched with the overall length of Jerry's model) does not appear to be accurate.

[Andrew Mason]

If you compare your side view of the two men seated in your model, though, the model does not match the real-life limo.  In the image below I have matched the locations of the front and back edges of the left rear door. Although the view is a bit lower in the model with the men, the relative sizes are the same and the car direction appears to be the same.  But there is a significant discrepancy of the jump seat positions between your model with the men and the other two images, as demonstrated by the yellow lines:



Something seems wrong there, to me.