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Author Topic: On The Trail Of Delusion  (Read 78760 times)

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: The Scholarship of James DiEugenio
« Reply #304 on: October 20, 2021, 03:33:20 AM »
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It seems to me that the WCs use of the quote by Cunningham in its report was extremely misleading because the Mannlicher Carcano does eject significant nitrates back onto the persons face as stated by Guinn. This is what Jim DiEugenio is talking about.

However the DPD then proceeded to make a mess of the paraffin casts they took from Oswald. They first subjected the casts to a dermal nitrate test (which was a useless test) which reduced the amounts of nitrates on the casts. So when it came to the second test, the neutron-activation analysis for antimony (which was the more accurate test) the casts were now in a less than desirable state due to the first dermal nitrate test having been conducted on the casts. To make matters worse for this second test, the people handling the casts contaminated the casts making them useless for analysis in this second test (the neutron-activation analysis for antimony test).

So while the WC arrived at the right conclusion (i.e. the parafin tests were inconclusive), it seems to me they inserted a misleading quote by Cunningham.

The Cunningham quote is followed a few lines later by an FBI test conducted after the JFK assassination and says that a test shot from a Mannlicher Carcano left no nitrates on the persons face. The WC report does not say FBI ballistics expert Cunningham was the one who did this test but i'm guessing he did as he was the one testifying before the WC. If Guinn tested the rifle and found it emitted significant amounts of nitrates and Cunningham says it emitted basically none, this raises questions about Cunninghams honesty in my opinion. And DiEugenio is right to raise this issue even if the source he cites is less than perfect.


With regard to the scholarship, from what I can see when Bill Turner phoned up Vincent Guinn after seeing Cunninghams testimony, Guinn mentioned a test he had done which Turner mistakenly thought had been conducted after Guinn had read Cunninghams testimony and had become suspicious. In fact the Guinn test had been done the weekend of the assassination. It seems me that Turner made a mistake as to when the test had been done and DiEugenio is simply repeating this mistake by citing "Letter from Turner to Gary Aguilar, July 17, 2007." as the reference. Yes, DiEugenio should have gone to the original source (Guinns article) but i'm guessing he just made a mistake which is probably difficult to avoid when writing a book on a topic as complicated as the JFK assassination.

Even if the source DiEugenio cites is less than perfect, I don't really feel misled by it to be honest. I think the point he makes is valid.

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Re: The Scholarship of James DiEugenio
« Reply #304 on: October 20, 2021, 03:33:20 AM »


Offline Fred Litwin

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Re: The Scholarship of James DiEugenio
« Reply #305 on: October 20, 2021, 05:53:57 AM »
He gets the point all wrong. In fact, Guinn confirmed Cunningham's testimony - the Mannlicher- carcano did not leave
enough nitrates on a cheek for the chemical dermal test to pick it up. The Carcano did leave traces that could only
be found by the NAA. DiEugenio also claims that Turner conducted tests with Guinn (he didn't) and that Turner
wrote it up in a journal (he didn't).

fred

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: The Scholarship of James DiEugenio
« Reply #306 on: October 21, 2021, 04:42:42 AM »
Ok, I see it now. DiEugenios book says that Turner did the tests with Guinn. In fact Turner was not a participant in the test at all. Guinn did the test with Pinker and then just told Turner about it. So there is a break in the communication there. DiEugenio should have gone back and examined Guinns work as he was the one who did the test.

You stated:

He gets the point all wrong. In fact, Guinn confirmed Cunningham's testimony - the Mannlicher- carcano did not leave
enough nitrates on a cheek for the chemical dermal test to pick it up.


The evidence you use for this is the fact, as stated in Guinns article, that when Guinn did the dermal nitrate test he found "of the eight casts, only one "gave a clear-cut 'positive' test for nitrates.". This statement however is not clear. What does he mean by "clear-cut"? It sounds like there were nitrates on a few of the casts but only one was "clear-cut". In contrast, the WC report states "The cast of the right cheek showed no reaction". The WC report makes a very definite statement in the negative.

The Cunningham quote in the WC report is difficult to understand. He gives the impression that there should be no nitrates at all on the right cheek whether it was for the chemical dermal test or the antimony test. I can see how he would think there should be no nitrates blasting onto a persons face. It was a closed chamber. That seems to make logical sense. But as it happens, according to Guinns tests, the rifle does indeed blow back nitrates onto a persons face significant enough to be picked up on the antimony test.

You stated:

The Carcano did leave traces that could only
be found by the NAA.


This would appear to contradict Cunninghams quote. So did Cunningham just assume there would be no nitrates blasting back onto a persons face? In which case that would be an honest mistake by Cunningham. But shouldn't Cunningham have known better as he was an FBI ballistics expert?



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Re: The Scholarship of James DiEugenio
« Reply #306 on: October 21, 2021, 04:42:42 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Mark Lane Interviews Roger Craig
« Reply #307 on: October 22, 2021, 04:33:48 PM »
1968:  Roger Craig (obviously unaware that he was going to try to sell a manuscript a few years later) believed (until he was corrected by Penn Jones) that the Tippit shooting occurred around 1:40.

1970's:  While trying to sell a manuscript, Roger Craig concocts a story of hearing of the shooting of a police officer in Oak Cliff and looking down at his wristwatch, noting that the time was 1:06.

Only a Moron would believe that Roger Craig has any credibility.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Mark Lane Interviews Roger Craig
« Reply #308 on: October 22, 2021, 09:48:24 PM »
More LN special pleading.

11/22/63 - Howard Brennan states in an affidavit that "I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again"
11/22/63 - Howard Brennan allegedly is brought to a police lineup by Forrest Sorrels and is unable to make a positive identification
12/17/63 - Howard Brennan now decides he was actually sure it was Oswald but thought his identification was "unnecessary"
3/24/64 - Howard Brennan concocts a story about how he failed to identify Oswald at the lineup because he was afraid for his and his family's safety

11/22/63 - Carl Day turns over a rifle to the FBI with no mention of having done a lift from the barrel, nor photographing a print there, nor covering it with tape
11/29/63 - An index card with a partial palmprint turns up in Washington with a concocted story about how Carl Day had lifted this print before giving the rifle to the FBI

11/22/63 - Charles Givens states in an affidavit that he worked on the 6th floor until about 11:30, then went downstairs to the bathroom, then took his lunch at 12:00 and let the building.
11/22/63 - Charles Givens tells the FBI that he saw Oswald in the domino room reading a paper at about 11:50.
12/2/63 - Charles Givens tells the secret service that he had seen Oswald with a clipboard on the sixth floor at about 11:45 a.m.
2/13/64 - Lt. Jack Revill of the Dallas police tells FBI agent Robert Gemberling that "Givens had been previously handled by the Special Services Bureau on a marijuana charge and he believes that Givens would change his story for money".
3/18/64 - Charles Givens makes a statement to FBI agent Thomas Trettis that he was with Edward Shields at Record and Elm at the time the president was shot and returned back in the building around 5:00 to pick up his hat and coat.
4/8/64 - Charles Given concocts a story about having returned to the 6th floor at about 11:55 on 11/22/63 to get his jacket and cigarettes and seeing Oswald walking away from the SE corner.

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Re: Mark Lane Interviews Roger Craig
« Reply #308 on: October 22, 2021, 09:48:24 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Mark Lane Interviews Roger Craig
« Reply #309 on: October 23, 2021, 10:08:16 PM »
More LN special pleading.

11/22/63 - Howard Brennan states in an affidavit that "I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again"
11/22/63 - Howard Brennan allegedly is brought to a police lineup by Forrest Sorrels and is unable to make a positive identification
12/17/63 - Howard Brennan now decides he was actually sure it was Oswald but thought his identification was "unnecessary"
3/24/64 - Howard Brennan concocts a story about how he failed to identify Oswald at the lineup because he was afraid for his and his family's safety

11/22/63 - Carl Day turns over a rifle to the FBI with no mention of having done a lift from the barrel, nor photographing a print there, nor covering it with tape
11/29/63 - An index card with a partial palmprint turns up in Washington with a concocted story about how Carl Day had lifted this print before giving the rifle to the FBI

11/22/63 - Charles Givens states in an affidavit that he worked on the 6th floor until about 11:30, then went downstairs to the bathroom, then took his lunch at 12:00 and let the building.
11/22/63 - Charles Givens tells the FBI that he saw Oswald in the domino room reading a paper at about 11:50.
12/2/63 - Charles Givens tells the secret service that he had seen Oswald with a clipboard on the sixth floor at about 11:45 a.m.
2/13/64 - Lt. Jack Revill of the Dallas police tells FBI agent Robert Gemberling that "Givens had been previously handled by the Special Services Bureau on a marijuana charge and he believes that Givens would change his story for money".
3/18/64 - Charles Givens makes a statement to FBI agent Thomas Trettis that he was with Edward Shields at Record and Elm at the time the president was shot and returned back in the building around 5:00 to pick up his hat and coat.
4/8/64 - Charles Given concocts a story about having returned to the 6th floor at about 11:55 on 11/22/63 to get his jacket and cigarettes and seeing Oswald walking away from the SE corner.

11/29/63 - An index card with a partial palmprint turns up in Washington with a concocted story about how Carl Day had lifted this print before giving the rifle to the FBI

You recognize that the "palm print" ( smudge)  on an index card is a "concocted story"....But you refuse to admit that the index card was actually included in the evidence that the DPD turned over to the FBI at midnight on 11/22/63.

The truth is:...Lt Day lifted what he imagined to be a palm print on the bottom of the foregrip of the carcano when he he was examining the rife for prints just minutes after he lifted the caracano FROM THE FLOOR beneath the pallet of books, where it had been carefully hidden.  Tom Alyea Watched him lift that print and has said that he saw Day place the lift on an index card.
The FBI examined that so called "palm print" on 11/23/63 and reported that the smudge was useless for id purposes.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Mark Lane Interviews Roger Craig
« Reply #310 on: October 24, 2021, 03:41:36 AM »
You recognize that the "palm print" ( smudge)  on an index card is a "concocted story"....But you refuse to admit that the index card was actually included in the evidence that the DPD turned over to the FBI at midnight on 11/22/63.

I "refuse to admit" that because there is no evidence for it other than a fanciful Walt fabrication.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Mark Lane Interviews Roger Craig
« Reply #311 on: October 24, 2021, 09:49:55 PM »
I "refuse to admit" that because there is no evidence for it other than a fanciful Walt fabrication.

Why don't you drop the "fanciful Walt fabrication" and actually examine the evidence with an open mind?

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Re: Mark Lane Interviews Roger Craig
« Reply #311 on: October 24, 2021, 09:49:55 PM »