The Bus Stop Farce

[Martin Weidmann]

No.  It's not the same difference.

Did she think he was asking her what time she got to her bus stop?

Did she think he was asking her what time she gets on the bus?

Who knows.  But, 1:15 would NOT be the time she always boards her bus since there was no 1:15 bus.

Weak. You don't get to determine what she thought. The question is clear; Ball wanted to know when she got her bus.

Ball did not ask when she arrived at the bus stop.

And how do you know there wasn't a bus at 1.15? Just because the schedule (according to the FBI) said 1.12 and 1.22, does that mean that a bus can not be late three minutes?

But it's a moot point, because even if Markham arrived at the bus stop at 1.15, she would have walked passed the corner of 10th & Patton at 1.12 or 1.13, because it takes at least 2 minutes to walk the distance from 10th street to the bus stop on Jefferson. This in turn means that she would have passed 10th street before the shooting, if that took place at 1.14 or 1.15.

[Martin Weidmann]

Isn't Markham's positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Barbara Davis' positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Virginia Davis' positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Scoggins' positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Callaway's positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Guinyard's positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?

Please answer the above six questions.  Eyewitness testimony is evidence.

What evidence corroborates those identifications?

Yes, eyewitness testimony is evidence, but it's highly unreliable and questionable. How many people haven't been wrongly convicted based on incorrect eyewitness testimony?

What makes the eyewitness identifications so suspect in this case is the fact that all the witnesses identified the same person, which is a statistical impossibility. Line ups are not the be all end all. Witnesses can feel pressured to pick somebody from the line up, especially when they are told the suspect is in the line up. Very often eyewitnesses will change their story when scrutinized by a good defense lawyer. That never happened in this case. Besides, if the timeline proves that Oswald could not have been at 10th street when the shooting happened, the conclusion must be that the witnesses were wrong.

Bowley didn't see anything.  The killer was gone by the time Bowley arrived.  What are you talking about?  What kind of lineup would you have Bowley attend?

Really? How do you know? There is no record of anybody ever asking Bowley if he saw the killer. So why are you sure that Bowley didn't see anything?

Let's examine the record and the facts we know;

Markham arrives at 10th street and sees Tippit being shot. Callaway, who is half a block away, hears the shots and sees a man running toward him. He shouts to the man and then runs to 10th street.

Now, how much time did go by between the shots and Callaway's arrival at the crime scene? I would argue it did not take more than the time it took the killer to run to Callaway and it took Callaway to run to 10th street. In other words, no more than 2 minutes.

Somewhere in those two minutes Bowley arrived at the crime scene, checked the officer and worked the DPD radio. This means that Bowley either just missed the killer passing by or saw him leave 10th street in the direction of Callaway on Patton. I guess we will never know for sure, but the question needs to be asked why Bowely was so completely ignored by all the investigations.

[Walt Cakebread]

There is literally a MOUNTAIN of evidence that proves without any doubt that Oswald was at the Tippit crime scene and was carrying a Revolver, heck, even the shells seen dropped by Oswald at the Tippit crime scene were an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver.


Utter nonsense and a damned lie.... The shells presented at the hearing were NOT positively identified as the same shells that were found WIDELY SCATTERED  at the murder scene.

The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it


The S&W revolver dumps all of the chambers at once....It is NOT unloaded by removing one shell at a time.  thus the killer was NOT using a S&W revolver


Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not?
Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail.

Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that - he said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.







JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Great post, John.  This one should be a thread starter.

That would be a short thread because nobody denies that Oswald carried a revolver when he was arrested.

The only possible discussion could be whether CE143 is in fact the revolver they took from Oswald.

[Ray Mitcham]

She also said the man who shot the policeman was Lee Oswald.  So, what now?

She didn't until it was pointed out that the second man in the lineup was the killer.

Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before did you recognize anybody from their face?
Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.
Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.
Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.
Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

[Alan J. Ford]

Oswald was indeed wearing a light shirt.

He had on a white T-shirt, then the outer shirt (the long-sleeved brown shirt) and then the light-colored jacket.  If the jacket is zipped only halfway up and the top half of the brown shirt is unbuttoned, then it seems the white T-shirt would be very noticeable.

First things first, Mr. Brown:

(A) Who told you sir the jacket was only zipped up halfway during the encounter between Tippit and the actual gunman? Source please.

(B) Now, regardless of the light colour of the shirt, which did Not match the dark reddish brown shirt donned by the wrongly accused, How do you account for the difference in the light grey pants worn by the wrongly accused as oppose to the dark coloured trousers described by Mrs. Markham worn by the actual gunman?

Now, for the record, Mr. Brown, I'm not here to clash with you in spite of our obvious differences in this case as I have come to respect you in spite of those differences. That said, I'm no longer the "rookie" researcher you, Mr. Mack (Gary, RIP), etc encountered in May of 2014 w/the Ben Hur chariot avatar drawn by a team of horses. Mr. Mack flooded my then PM box w/your wrong about this "kid", you're wrong about that "kid", etc.

However, upon further reading and immersing myself deeper into this case, suffice it to say the hastily contrived script fed to the general public framing an innocent party does Not pass the test of time. That said, best to you & yours for a safe, healthy & Happy Thanksgiving!

The wrongly accused did Not shoot anybody. Anybody.

[Alan J. Ford]

Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man

That's what the police said that Domingo Benavides said.....  BUT.... Benavides DID describe the killer.....And he DID NOT describe Lee Oswald.

Benavides described the man's hair as being cut totally different than Lee Oswald's ......

An excellent point! This rather telling revelation didn't sync w/the hastily contrived script growing legs to frame an innocent party. Not to mention the actual Tippit gunman was described as weighing between 160-170lbs (nowhere near the mere 131lbs of the wrongly accused).

An innocent man was framed.

[Alan J. Ford]

A final thought about the dark trousers ---->

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light shirt and dark trousers. (Representative Ford is now in the Commission hearing room.)

The wrongly accused wore light coloured grey pants (see his apprehension photo at the Texas Theatre for confirmation, where he is indeed wearing light grey trousers). According to the WC's "star" witness, Tippit's gunman wore dark trousers. Tippit's gunman was twice--2X-- the physique of the wrongly accused.

An innocent man was framed amid a hastily contrived script mired knee deep in horse manure. It's a dam* disgrace what lying treasonous cowards like Ford, Dulles, etc. did to frame him.

Tippit's actual gunman donned different clothing than the wrongly accused and was MUCH larger in physique. Not to mention his hairstyle as reported earlier in this thread was also much different.