The Bus Stop Farce

[Martin Weidmann]

Because that would be disingenuous at best, as the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are all individual items recorded on a voice activated system and thus can not be verified in a similar manner than during the 5 minute open mike episode.

A repeat of what I posted, from Bowles’ report, above:

By noting the stated times and the duration of messages in the minutes preceding the incident of the open microphone, I have, for practical purposes, fixed the time for the start of the five-minute open mike episode at 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time)

Bowles determined the time of the start of that open mike period based on (what he says). There is no reason that a similar method could not be applied to a particular point in the time frame of the recordings during the period of the Tippit shooting.

He fixed the time, for practical purposes, at 12:29. That doesn't mean that time was correct. He needed a starting point from where to time the duration of the open mike episode. He could just as easily have used 12:28 or 12:31. What he tried to establish was if the open mike episode could have occurred when the acoustics report claimed it did.

There is no reason that a similar method could not be applied to a particular point in the time frame of the recordings during the period of the Tippit shooting

Oh yes there is a reason. The radio calls were recorded on voice activated devices. When you do not know how long each interval is between each activation you will get nowhere. Had the recording been continuous it would have been a different matter because all you then needed was a starting point. But it wasn't continuous. I have actually heard a part of the dictabelt recording and what the time calls by the dispatchers suggested was a one hour period only lasted (if I remember correctly) 48 minutes on the dictabelt

No it isn't. It's very simple actually. Bowles explained in great deal how the system of clocks and time calls related to eachother and why none of it is reliable.

Yeah, like I indicated, not reliable enough to tie something down to a tenth of a second. The report is very long and detailed with one aspect depending on the correct understandings of other aspects. And you only accept the parts that you want to. There is no point in trying to discuss this. The report speaks for itself.

No, not reliable to tie it down to a particular minute. Who says I only accept the parts of the report I want to? That's total BS. You can do a song and dance routine as much as you like, but you will never be able to deny that Bowles said;

"Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time."

and

"Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

These two factual comments are enough to conclude that the times provided by the dispatchers can not be relied upon.

Scoggins time does not need to match the DPD time. Why do you insist that it must? If the DPD time is off a minute or two, and the cab company’s time is off a minute or two, and the dispatcher delayed his recording of the call to notify the police; then there is no conflict between them. So the conflict between Bowley’s watch and the other two times is what is in dispute. You can believe what you want. I really don’t care. But there is no way that I will believe that both the DPD and the cab company’s time are off by 6 or 7 minutes.

Scoggins time does not need to match the DPD time. Why do you insist that it must?

For crying out loud, when you claim that DPD times and the time Scoggins gave are correct, they have to be in sinc with eachother, don't you think? There is only one sequence of events that is and can be the right one.....

If the DPD time is off a minute or two, and the cab company’s time is off a minute or two, and the dispatcher delayed his recording of the call to notify the police; then there is no conflict between them.

Aha, I see... between the two of them they can be off by a couple of minutes, but they can't be off against all the other time related evidence that is out there? Got it... that's some special pleading!

So the conflict between Bowley’s watch and the other two times is what is in dispute.

Sure.. and the time(s) Markham's bus left Jefferson, and the time recorded on the authorisation for autopsy which says Dr Ligouri declared Tippit DOA at 1.15, and the time Detective Davenport registered for the DOA and the time that NBC news reported Tippit's DOA (before it actually could have happened in Scoggins' alternative time line).

But there is no way that I will believe that both the DPD and the cab company’s time are off by 6 or 7 minutes.

No worries. There is also no way that I will believe that you are willing to look at the evidence honestly and are only interested in the truth (as you claim) ....  I suppose living in cuckoo land will eventually drive you cuckoo...But it is good of you to expose your bias.

[Charles Collins]

He fixed the time, for practical purposes, at 12:29. That doesn't mean that time was correct. He needed a starting point from where to time the duration of the open mike episode. He could just as easily have used 12:28 or 12:31. What he tried to establish was if the open mike episode could have occurred when the acoustics report claimed it did.

There is no reason that a similar method could not be applied to a particular point in the time frame of the recordings during the period of the Tippit shooting

Oh yes there is a reason. The radio calls were recorded on voice activated devices. When you do not know how long each interval is between each activation you will get nowhere. Had the recording been continuous it would have been a different matter because all you then needed was a starting point. But it wasn't continuous. I have actually heard a part of the dictabelt recording and what the time calls by the dispatchers suggested was a one hour period only lasted (if I remember correctly) 48 minutes on the dictabelt

No, not reliable to tie it down to a particular minute. Who says I only accept the parts of the report I want to? That's total BS. You can do a song and dance routine as much as you like, but you will never be able to deny that Bowles said;

"Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time."

and

"Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

These two factual comments are enough to conclude that the times provided by the dispatchers can not be relied upon.

Scoggins time does not need to match the DPD time. Why do you insist that it must?

For crying out loud, when you claim that DPD times and the time Scoggins gave are correct, they have to be in sinc with eachother, don't you think? There is only one sequence of events that is and can be the right one.....

If the DPD time is off a minute or two, and the cab company’s time is off a minute or two, and the dispatcher delayed his recording of the call to notify the police; then there is no conflict between them.

Aha, I see... between the two of them they can be off by a couple of minutes, but they can't be off against all the other time related evidence that is out there? Got it... that's some special pleading!

So the conflict between Bowley’s watch and the other two times is what is in dispute.

Sure.. and the time(s) Markham's bus left Jefferson, and the time recorded on the authorisation for autopsy which says Dr Ligouri declared Tippit DOA at 1.15, and the time Detective Davenport registered for the DOA and the time that NBC news reported Tippit's DOA (before it actually could have happened in Scoggins' alternative time line).

But there is no way that I will believe that both the DPD and the cab company’s time are off by 6 or 7 minutes.

No worries. The is also no way that I will believe that you are willing to look at the evidence honestly and are only interested in the truth....  I suppose living in cuckoo land will eventually drive you cuckoo...

He could just as easily have used 12:28 or 12:31.

I suggest that you might want to read the following:

Time statements broadcast later confirm this as a rational assumption. (See PART II, CHAPTER FIVE for technical details demonstrating this confirmation.)

He could not have just as easily used 12:28 or 12:31. The time he used appears to be derived as a close approximation of a time that is based on the first shot occurring at approximately 12:30:55 (not some arbitrary time, and the general consensus is that 12:30 Central Standard Time is the approximate time of the shooting). I have taken another look at the method he describes and it appears to me that his derived time synchronizes to within about 40-seconds or so of the announced time at 12:28 (before the mike stuck open) on channel 1.


Had the recording been continuous it would have been a different matter because all you then needed was a starting point.

What you need to keep in mind is that the 5-minute stuck-open mike was just another sound activated recording. The main difference is that it lasted way longer than the typical one. The starting point time for that recording was derived from the recorded times of other activities. Bowles describes his method in detail. My contention is that a similar derived time can be approximated for the Tippit shooting using a similar method.


For crying out loud, when you claim that DPD times and the time Scoggins gave are correct, they have to be in sinc with eachother, don't you think?

Did I claim that either one or both were 100% accurate. I don’t believe that I ever did that. What I suggested is that both of the entities involved had good reason to keep their times reasonably close to the standard time. A minute or two off is about as far off as they should ever be. And most of the time they should be closer than that.

[Martin Weidmann]

He could just as easily have used 12:28 or 12:31.

I suggest that you might want to read the following:

Time statements broadcast later confirm this as a rational assumption. (See PART II, CHAPTER FIVE for technical details demonstrating this confirmation.)

He could not have just as easily used 12:28 or 12:31. The time he used appears to be derived as a close approximation of a time that is based on the first shot occurring at approximately 12:30:55 (not some arbitrary time, and the general consensus is that 12:30 Central Standard Time is the approximate time of the shooting). I have taken another look at the method he describes and it appears to me that his derived time synchronizes to within about 40-seconds or so of the announced time at 12:28 (before the mike stuck open) on channel 1.

So, his starting time estimate of 1.29 was a rational assumption. So what? He needed a starting point and he found one. That's it.

Had the recording been continuous it would have been a different matter because all you then needed was a starting point.

What you need to keep in mind is that the 5-minute stuck-open mike was just another sound activated recording. The main difference is that it lasted way longer than the typical one. The starting point time for that recording was derived from the recorded times of other activities. Bowles describes his method in detail. My contention is that a similar derived time can be approximated for the Tippit shooting using a similar method.

Yes, I do know that the 5 minute open mike recording was a sound activated recording, which subsequently continued for 5 minutes. So what?

You could only have done that for the Tippit shooting if the recording during that period was continuous, which it wasn't. If there had been a continuous recording, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

For crying out loud, when you claim that DPD times and the time Scoggins gave are correct, they have to be in sinc with eachother, don't you think?

Did I claim that either one or both were 100% accurate. I don’t believe that I ever did that. What I suggested is that both of the entities involved had good reason to keep their times reasonably close to the standard time. A minute or two off is about as far off as they should ever be. And most of the time they should be closer than that.

You don't have to claim that either was 100% accurate. There was only one sequence of events. The things that happened did happen in a specific order and at a particular time. So, if you want to argue that the DPD recordings and the time provided by Scoggins both are to be believed (which is what you did) they should at least not be at odds with eachother. But they are! That's my point. You can not have a DPD call to the ambulance service at 1.18 on the transcripts (which means the ambulance was there at 1.19 at the latest) and have Scoggins say that he was calling his dispatcher when the ambulance arrived at 1.23. I don't understand why I need to explain something as basic as this to you, again and again...

[Charles Collins]

So, his starting time estimate of 1.29 was a rational assumption. So what? He needed a starting point and he found one. That's it.

Yes, I do know that the 5 minute open mike recording was a sound activated recording, which subsequently continued for 5 minutes. So what?

You could only have done that for the Tippit shooting if the recording during that period was continuous, which it wasn't. If there had been a continuous recording, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

You don't have to claim that either was 100% accurate. There was only one sequence of events. The things that happened did happen in a specific order and at a particular time. So, if you want to argue that the DPD recordings and the time provided by Scoggins both are to be believed (which is what you did) they should at least not be at odds with eachother. But they are! That's my point. You can not have a DPD call to the ambulance service at 1.18 on the transcripts (which means the ambulance was there at 1.19 at the latest) and have Scoggins say that he was calling his dispatcher when the ambulance arrived at 1.23. I don't understand why I need to explain something as basic as this to you, again and again...

So, his starting time estimate of 1.29 was a rational assumption. So what? He needed a starting point and he found one. That's it.

The fact that he needed one is not what made it a rational assumption.


You could only have done that for the Tippit shooting if the recording during that period was continuous, which it wasn't.

If you are stipulating that it be as accurate as Bowles’ report and accurately cover an extended period of time. Then I might agree. But the event that enables Bowles to closely associate his derived time to Central time is the known generally accepted time of the JFK shooting. Not just the continuous recording aspect alone.


You can not have a DPD call to the ambulance service at 1.18 on the transcripts (which means the ambulance was there at 1.19 at the latest) and have Scoggins say that he was calling his dispatcher when the ambulance arrived at 1.23.

The 1:23 is the time that Scoggins said that the dispatcher indicated to the supervisor that he recorded the call. Not what you said above.

[Bill Chapman]

Why would I need to show such a nonsensical thing?

Let me catch you up: Oswald was seen wearing a jacket @Tippit. An if-guilty Oswald would not want to be wearing, in the line-up, the same clothing he was seen wearing @Tippit.

Thus, no request (unless you can prove otherwise) by Oswald for his jacket.

Well?

[Martin Weidmann]

Let me catch you up: Oswald was seen wearing a jacket @Tippit. An if-guilty Oswald would not want to be wearing, in the line-up, the same clothing he was seen wearing @Tippit.

Thus, no request (unless you can prove otherwise) by Oswald for his jacket.

Well?

And an if-not guilty Oswald would not be asking - for lack of knowledge - for a jacket, if he had left the rooming house without a jacket and had never been at the Tippit scene. Duh.

[Martin Weidmann]

So, his starting time estimate of 1.29 was a rational assumption. So what? He needed a starting point and he found one. That's it.

The fact that he needed one is not what made it a rational assumption.

You could only have done that for the Tippit shooting if the recording during that period was continuous, which it wasn't.

If you are stipulating that it be as accurate as Bowles’ report and accurately cover an extended period of time. Then I might agree. But the event that enables Bowles to closely associate his derived time to Central time is the known generally accepted time of the JFK shooting. Not just the continuous recording aspect alone.

None of this has any relevance for the Tippit murder. There was no continuous recording nor an event that could be used to fix a starting time.

You can not have a DPD call to the ambulance service at 1.18 on the transcripts (which means the ambulance was there at 1.19 at the latest) and have Scoggins say that he was calling his dispatcher when the ambulance arrived at 1.23.

The 1:23 is the time that Scoggins said that the dispatcher indicated to the supervisor that he recorded the call. Not what you said above.

Hang on, you were relying on the time Scoggins gave to somehow "prove" that Bowley's watch was slow and you even went so far as to argue that the cab company's clock was better calibrated than Bowley's watch. So, your intention was clearly to present the 1.23 "recorded time" as the time the call actually took place, when it clearly wasn't.

Now you basically say; Scoggins claimed he heard from his dispatcher that the supervisor had written down the time of 1.23 some time after the actual call took place. In other words, it had nothing to do with a calibrated clock and it could have been written down minutes later, depending on whatever else the supervisor was doing at that time.

So all you've really got is a double hearsay of a time that is not the actual time the call took place!

If you had presented this argument in a court of law, you would have been laughed out of court and probably reprimanded by the Judge for wasting the court's time.

Scoggins' time of 1.23 is completely meaningless and does not influence the time line I have presented at all.

[Charles Collins]

None of this has any relevance for the Tippit murder. There was no continuous recording nor an event that could be used to fix a starting time.

Hang on, you were relying on the time Scoggins gave to somehow "prove" that Bowley's watch was slow and you even went so far as to argue that the cab company's clock was better calibrated than Bowley's watch. So, your intention was clearly to present the 1.23 "recorded time" as the time the call actually took place, when it clearly wasn't.

Now you basically say; Scoggins claimed he heard from his dispatcher that the supervisor had written down the time of 1.23 some time after the actual call took place. In other words, it had nothing to do with a calibrated clock and it could have been written down minutes later, depending on whatever else the supervisor was doing at that time.

So all you've really got is a double hearsay of a time that is not the actual time the call took place!

If you had presented this argument in a court of law, you would have been laughed out of court and probably reprimanded by the Judge for wasting the court's time.

Scoggins' time of 1.23 is completely meaningless and does not influence the time line I have presented at all.

If you had presented your "timeline" in a court of law, they would be laughing even harder.

But this isn't a court of law. If LHO had survived to go to trial, and this became part of the evidence, the witnesses would be there and questions would be answered.