The Bus Stop Farce

[Alan Hardaker]

If there was 10,15,20 eye witnesses saying they saw Oswald kill Tippet, the truth deniers would still twist the evidence in Oswald's favour. Bit like Trump denying Biden.Only difference is Trump will give up eventually. But like the truth deniers he will still believe he was robbed of victory.

I mean it beggar's belief that people still claim Oswald is innocent of the murder of Tippet. Suppose that's the reason ridiculous conspiracies exsist. Some people just can't accept that the're wrong.

I initially started out (back in the day) believing that Oswald was innocent but once I looked at the overwhelming evidence, some of it slightly flawed admittedly, I quickly realised I was wrong. Oswald killed 2 people that day (3 if you count his own life) JFK & Officer J.D.Tippet.

[Charles Collins]

If there was 10,15,20 eye witnesses saying they saw Oswald kill Tippet, the truth deniers would still twist the evidence in Oswald's favour. Bit like Trump denying Biden.Only difference is Trump will give up eventually. But like the truth deniers he will still believe he was robbed of victory.

I mean it beggar's belief that people still claim Oswald is innocent of the murder of Tippet. Suppose that's the reason ridiculous conspiracies exsist. Some people just can't accept that the're wrong.

I initially started out (back in the day) believing that Oswald was innocent but once I looked at the overwhelming evidence, some of it slightly flawed admittedly, I quickly realised I was wrong. Oswald killed 2 people that day (3 if you count his own life) JFK & Officer J.D.Tippet. 3 if you count his own life

3 if you count his own life

I agree with you Alan. He must have known that he was most likely going to die soon (in the electric chair if he survived to stand trial) as a result of the assassination. Yet, he pulled the trigger anyway. His narrow escape from the TSBD was likely a surprise to him. And the murder of Tippit indicates to me that he intended to go out with a bang. I wouldn’t be surprised if he actually intended to shoot himself after he said “this is it” in the Texas Theater. Yes, I know this is conjecture. No need to point that out.

[Jerry Freeman]

 
 Posted by: Alan Hardaker
« on: Today at 08:20:01 PM »

If there was 10,15,20 eye witnesses saying they saw Oswald kill Tippet, the truth deniers would still twist the evidence in Oswald's favour. Bit like Trump denying Biden.Only difference is Trump will give up eventually. But like the truth deniers he will still believe he was robbed of victory. I mean it beggar's belief that people still claim Oswald is innocent of the murder of Tippet.

When someone starts harping and going on about Trump and Biden ...completely off topic...I really question their agenda here.
10 or 20 people did not see Oswald shoot Tippit. In fact there was not one single individual that testified that they saw Oswald shoot the policeman. A case in point...Jack Tatum. Mr Tatum never testified before the Warren Commission. Why not?--Because his testimony was really worthless?  Tatum stated in interview before the HSCA the following---

Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street). At the time I was just approaching the squad car, I noticed this young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side of the squad car. This young white male was looking into the squad car from the passenger side. The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton). I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back. I then saw the officer lying on the street and saw this young white man standing near the front of the squad car. Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street. At that point this young man looked around him and then started to walk away in my direction and as he started to break into a small run in my direction, I sped off in my auto. All I saw him to the intersection and run south on Patton towards Jefferson.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tatum.htm
"This young man"? That is a positive identification of who exactly? Throw that worthless Dale Meyers book away already. Tatum stated he saw men...men...plural... walking near the squad car.
Tatum stated that the men were walking east---

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him.

Alan Hardacker seems to know less about this case than Charles Collins who apparently knows nothing.

[Bill Chapman]

Same thing

Actually it isn't.

She didn't ID Oswald as the shooter. She felt pressured and got weak... She said so in her testimony

If this case had gone to trial Markham would have been destroyed by a defense lawyer. I don't think the prosecutor wouldn't even call her as a witness.

No speculation necessary in this instance: My deduction is solidly based on the fact that Oswald was witnessed wearing a jacket @Tippit and wasn't wearing a jacket when caught. Ergo: An innocent man would insist on wearing a jacket in the lineup. An innocent man would have no reason to get rid of the jacket, especially on a cool day and one as poor as Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Mrs. MARKHAM. When I said number two, I just got weak.
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.

BTW, Number two in the lineup was Oswald.

The word 'pressured' does not come up in Markham's wc testimony
You are attempting to make it seem that Markham was pressured to ID Oswald.
HOWEVER:
Mr. BALL. It was. In this lineup room, the room was full of policemen. Weren't there just one or two men with you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. One or two with me, but I don't know who they were.
Mr. BALL. But there were other officers?
Mrs. MARKHAM. There were all policemen sitting in the back of me, and aside of me.
Mr. BALL. In this room?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. They were doing something.
Mr. BALL. Before you went into this room were you shown a picture of anyone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was not.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any television?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not.
Mr. BALL. Did a police officer say anything to you before you went in there, to tell you--
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. That he thought "We had the right man," or something of that sort? Anything like that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. No statement like that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would be in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
 
Markham 'got weak', had cold chills and almost fell over at the sight of the guy (#2) she saw shoot Tippit.

[Bill Brown]

You got me... Markham didn't use the word "catch". It was Ball who asked her when she usually got her bus.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Same difference

No.  It's not the same difference.

Did she think he was asking her what time she got to her bus stop?

Did she think he was asking her what time she gets on the bus?

Who knows.  But, 1:15 would NOT be the time she always boards her bus since there was no 1:15 bus.

[Bill Brown]

@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years
Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

That's a great point.

[Bill Brown]

@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years
Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years

Unfortunately for you, it's no longer an estimate when it is corroborated by other evidence.

Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

All you've got is Markham's "was there a number 2"...

The other two witnesses who were in the best position to see or could have seen (and identify) the shooter were Domingo Benavides and T.F. Bowley. Both men did not attend the line up. Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man and Bowley was completely ignored by law enforcement after he gave his affidavit.

And before you ask, we know that Bowley arrived at the crime scene just after the shooting and before Callaway got there. This means that Bowley either just missed the killer passing by or saw him leave 10th street in the direction of Callaway on Patton.

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

How in the world would you even know what Oswald asked for at the line up?

Unfortunately for you, it's no longer an estimate when it is corroborated by other evidence.

Isn't Markham's positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Barbara Davis' positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Virginia Davis' positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Scoggins' positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Callaway's positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?
Isn't Guinyard's positive identification of Oswald corroborated by other evidence?

Please answer the above six questions.  Eyewitness testimony is evidence.

The other two witnesses who were in the best position to see or could have seen (and identify) the shooter were Domingo Benavides and T.F. Bowley. Both men did not attend the line up. Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man and Bowley was completely ignored by law enforcement after he gave his affidavit.

Bowley didn't see anything.  The killer was gone by the time Bowley arrived.  What are you talking about?  What kind of lineup would you have Bowley attend?

[Bill Brown]

There is literally a MOUNTAIN of evidence that proves without any doubt that Oswald was at the Tippit crime scene and was carrying a Revolver, heck, even the shells seen dropped by Oswald at the Tippit crime scene were an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver.

The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not?
Mr. WALKER. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail.

Mr. BELIN. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CARROLL. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that - he said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.







JohnM

Great post, John.  This one should be a thread starter.