Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: The Bus Stop Farce  (Read 115835 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6506
Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #320 on: December 05, 2020, 06:54:24 PM »
Advertisement
Did you say something?

Aren't you the guy who, without a shred of evidence, claimed that Oswald ran to 10th Street, but can't explain why he would even go to such a go nowhere street in a residential area, let alone run there?

Are you paying attention?

I'm suggesting Oswald was on the run with no particular destination in mind, other than to get the f out of Dodge by whatever route available.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 07:13:13 PM by Bill Chapman »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #320 on: December 05, 2020, 06:54:24 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #321 on: December 05, 2020, 07:48:43 PM »
Are you paying attention?

I'm suggesting Oswald was on the run with no particular destination in mind, other than to get the f out of Dodge by whatever route available.

Are you paying attention?

Are you? You don't appear to be...

Your suggestion is plain stupid for three reasons; (1) a guy running down the street gets noticed far more quickly than somebody who walks, (2) Oswald knew the area, he had lived on Neely Street nearby, so he knew where to go for the busses, and that would be straight down Beckley to Jefferson and not to some residential street and (3) if he wanted to get out of Dallas he could have taken any bus from the city center.

You're just making up stuff in order to somehow get Oswald to 10th street on time to shoot Tippit. Good luck with that, because the timeline shows Tippit was most likely killed between 1.06 and 1.10 and the fastest way from the rooming house, where he still was just after 1 pm, takes 11 minutes... Do the math..... but you probably won't.

Online Gerry Down

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #322 on: December 05, 2020, 08:14:11 PM »
(1) a guy running down the street gets noticed far more quickly than somebody who walks

I don't know. If you do a google street view journey through the streets of that area it is quiet run down with lots of houses missing. I don't know how run down or empty (as in empty sites) Oak Cliff was in 1963 but its possible Oswald could have ran portions of the trip to 10th and Patton where there were no houses.

He could also have run through the alleyways at the backs of houses.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #322 on: December 05, 2020, 08:14:11 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #323 on: December 05, 2020, 08:18:41 PM »
I don't know. If you do a google street view journey through the streets of that area it is quiet run down with lots of houses missing. I don't know how run down or empty (as in empty sites) Oak Cliff was in 1963 but its possible Oswald could have ran portions of the trip to 10th and Patton where there were no houses.

He could also have run through the alleyways at the backs of houses.

Could have?..... Sure, he could also have rented a limo with driver to take him to 10th Street.

In fact, if - as the timeline shows - Tippit was most likely killed between 1.06 and 1.10 and Oswald was still at the rooming house at 1.01 or 1.02, he would have needed a car to get to 10th Street in 4 to 6 minutes and even that would be cutting it close.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 08:21:21 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Gerry Down

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #324 on: December 05, 2020, 08:25:05 PM »
Tippit was most likely killed between 1.06 and 1.10

How do you explain the police radio log showing that Tippits death was only called in by a bystander using Tippits radio at 1:16pm. That's quiet a time difference.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #324 on: December 05, 2020, 08:25:05 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #325 on: December 05, 2020, 08:48:17 PM »
How do you explain the police radio log showing that Tippits death was only called in by a bystander using Tippits radio at 1:16pm. That's quiet a time difference.

Easy

According to J.C. Bowles, who was in charge of the DPD dispatchers, the times given verbally by the dispatchers (and thus copied in the transcripts) aren't reliable to determine the real time. This is what Bowles told the HSCA;

Two quotes from the same page: http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html#set

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." The Committee Report stated that the Dallas Police Communications system was recorded by continuously operating recorders. That statement is incorrect. Channel 1 was recorded on a Dictaphone A2TC, Model 5, belt or loop recorder. Channel 2 was recorded on a Gray "Audograph" flat disk recorder. Both were duplex units with one recording and one on standby for when the other unit contained a full recording. Both units were sound activated. It is important to note "sound" rather than "voice" because either sound or noise from any source, received through the transmission line, would activate the recorders. Once activated, the recorders remained "on" for the duration of the activating sound plus 4 seconds. The four second delay permitted brief pauses or answers to questions without the relay mechanism being overworked. On occasion, the recorders would operate almost continuously because rapid radio traffic kept them operating. On November 22, 1963, the Channel 1 recorders became, for practical purposes, continuous recorders for just over five minutes starting at approximately 12:29 pm (Channel 1 time) because the microphone on a police motorcycle stuck in the "on" position. The resulting continuous transmission kept the Channel 1 recorders operating for just over five minutes thus giving us a real-time recording for that period. The only problem was determining a basis for an accurate time reference during that period.


And the bystander who called it in to the dispatcher was T.F. Bowley who arrived on the scene just after Tippit was shot. He looked at his watch and it said 1.10 pm

And btw the authorization for autopsy, signed by a Justice of the Peace, shows that Tippit was declared DOA at the Methodist hospital at 1:15 pm. DPD officer Davenport, who followed the ambulance part of the way and was present at the hospital confirms that time in his report.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 08:55:42 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Gerry Down

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #326 on: December 05, 2020, 08:56:40 PM »
And the bystander who called it in to the dispatcher was T.F. Bowley who arrived on the scene just after Tippit was shot. He looked at his watch and it said 1.10 pm

So Bowley says 1.10pm and Markham says she saw the clock read 1.06pm when she left. That means she would have first seen Oswald about, what, 1.08 or 1.09pm.

But when you follow Scoggins movements he goes to the gentlemans club at like 1pm, watches TV for a few minutes, then walks up to his car, sits in and starts eating his lunch and sees Tippit pass by. Scoggins timeline seems to push the timing of the Tippit shooting to more in line with Dale Myers timing of 1.14pm


Offline Martin Weidmann

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7444
Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #327 on: December 05, 2020, 09:33:20 PM »
So Bowley says 1.10pm and Markham says she saw the clock read 1.06pm when she left. That means she would have first seen Oswald about, what, 1.08 or 1.09pm.

But when you follow Scoggins movements he goes to the gentlemans club at like 1pm, watches TV for a few minutes, then walks up to his car, sits in and starts eating his lunch and sees Tippit pass by. Scoggins timeline seems to push the timing of the Tippit shooting to more in line with Dale Myers timing of 1.14pm

No. Markham did not say that. She said she left home just after 1 pm and she estimated that it was 1.06 when she got to the junction of 10th and Patton. That's where she saw Oswald walking and being called over by Tippit.

And if you follow Scoggins from the moment he picked up his last customer at the airport and drove him to Oak Cliff, you will notice that Scoggins probably was in the area of the gentlemans club some 15 to 10 minutes earlier than he estimated.

I'm not a big fan of Dale Myers. It is clear to me that he arrived at 1.14 because he based his opinion on the DPD radio transcripts and needed to push back the time of Tippit's shooting as late as possible, so that Oswald would have had the time to get from the rooming house to 10th Street on foot. We know from Gary Mack's time trial that the fastest route took 11 minutes and we know from Roberts that Oswald left the rooming house just after the 1 pm news had started.

The most obvious indicator that Tippit was not killed at 1.14 or 1.15 is that the authorization for autopsy I already mentioned which shows that Tippit was declared DOA at the Methodist hospital at 1:15 pm. DPD officer Davenport, who followed the ambulance part of the way and was present at the hospital confirms that time in his report.

And then there is the combined timeline of Helen Markham and T.F. Bowley that does not compute with Tippit being killed after 1:10 pm at the latest. No LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day, but according to the FBI the bus was scheduled to stop there at 1.12 and at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived shortly after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit. But even if we accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:14 or 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

The interaction of Bowley with Callaway further confirms Bowley's arrival at the crime scene shortly after Tippit was killed. He testified that he was about half a block away from 10th Street when he saw a man coming down the street with a revolved. After that encounter Callaway ran half a block to 10th Street and when he got there Bowley was already there, using the DPD radio. Both Bowley and Callaway assisted in putting Tippit into the ambulance which arrived only shortly after Callaway got there. The ambulance brought Tippit to Methodist hospital which was about two miles away (if memory serves) and Tippit was declared D.O.A. at 1.15.

This timeline fits perfectly together if the shooting of Tippit happened between 1.06 (the time Markham would have gotten to 10th street after walking one block) and 1.10 (the time Bowley arrived after having picked up his daughter from school). If you move the time of the murder back to 1.14 or 1.15, as per WC narrative) none of the timeline fits.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 09:40:09 PM by Martin Weidmann »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #327 on: December 05, 2020, 09:33:20 PM »