LHO's shirt

[Richard Smith]

You suggest the shirt fibers have no evidentiary value because they can't be linked to Oswald's arrest shirt or any specific shirt.  But for some inexplicable reason the FBI must coerce a witness to confirm that Oswald was wearing the arrest shirt from which fibers found on the rifle can't be linked?  Why?

I'll tell you as soon as you tell me why the FBI needed to take the arrest shirt to Bledsoe's house prior to her testimony.

Of course, even if the fibers could be linked to Oswald's arrest shirt, it wouldn't be necessary that they got on the rifle on the day of the assassination.  They could have gotten on the rifle on some prior occasion.

True, but that would render the fibers meaningless and the WC clearly didn't want them to be meaningless. 

So what problem did the FBI have with this evidence?

It has already been explained to you. I'm sorry you don't understand it, but it's not really my problem.

Now, explain to me why the FBI needed to take the arrest shirt to Bledsoe before her testimony. I bet you won't because it's one of those questions you normally run away from, but I'm asking nevertheless.

You imply that there is something sinister about the FBI taking the shirt to Bledsoe while contending that the shirt has no evidentiary value.   How would I or anyone know why the FBI did this?  Maybe it was more convenient for Bledsoe.  We know that she was elderly and rode the bus as a form of transportation.  Who really cares?  Would it have made any difference if they had shown her the shirt at the FBI office? That type of pedantic open ended question about the investigative process implies a lot without any evidence whatsoever to suggest the FBI was up to something.  And again, why go through this exercise if, as you claim, the shirt has no evidentiary value?  It would be pointless.  You are just going around in endless rabbit hole circles to imply there is something afoot when there is no indication whatsoever that taking the arrest shirt to Bledsoe has any relevance.  It's all the more amazing that you constantly make these baseless suggestions about the evidence while denying that you are a conspiracy theorist.

[Martin Weidmann]

You imply that there is something sinister about the FBI taking the shirt to Bledsoe while contending that the shirt has no evidentiary value.   How would I or anyone know why the FBI did this?  Maybe it was more convenient for Bledsoe.  We know that she was elderly and rode the bus as a form of transportation.  Who really cares? 

Who cares?.. Spoken like a true contrarian

Btw; I don't need you to tell me what I imply or not. All I did was ask a question and it appears, as per usual, that you don't have an answer. It's duly noted.

Would it have made any difference if they had shown her the shirt at the FBI office?

No, the basic question would remain the same. Why show a piece of evidence to a witness prior to her testimony? Bledsoe said she saw Oswald on the bus. She didn't say a word about his shirt until after the FBI visit. Go figure!

That type of pedantic open ended question about the investigative process implies a lot without any evidence whatsoever to suggest the FBI was up to something.  And again, why go through this exercise if, as you claim, the shirt has no evidentiary value?  It would be pointless. 

Well, let's see shall we.... The FBI finds fibers on the rifle, which they compare to the fibers of Oswald's arrest shirt and they find that the fibers are similar. Then they learn that various witnesses gave different descriptions of the shirt they saw Oswald wear on Friday morning, leaving them unable to argue that Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day (which btw is exactly what the WC later claimed).

So, they need to try to restore the evidentiary value of the shirt. Enter Bledsoe.... do the math

You are just going around in endless rabbit hole circles to imply there is something afoot when there is no indication whatsoever that taking the arrest shirt to Bledsoe has any relevance. It's all the more amazing that you constantly make these baseless suggestions about the evidence while denying that you are a conspiracy theorist.

You're not making any sense. If taking the arrest shirt to Bledsoe has no relevance, as you claim, then why did they do it? There is nothing baseless about the suggestion that the FBI must have had a good reason for taking the arrest shirt all the way from Washington to Dallas to show to a witness!

while denying that you are a conspiracy theorist.

You still haven't understood that there is a difference between somebody who asks questions about the evidence and points out inconsistancies and somebody who presents a theory (which I never have) and argues in defense of that theory (which I also have never done).

But then again, for narrow minded you, anybody who doesn't instantly agree with all the BS you call evidence must be a CT, right? If fits right in with the shallow and naieve nature you display here on a daily basis

[Richard Smith]

Who cares?.. Spoken like a true contrarian

Btw; I don't need you to tell me what I imply or not. All I did was ask a question and it appears, as per usual, that you don't have an answer. It's duly noted.

No, the basic question would remain the same. Why show a piece of evidence to a witness prior to her testimony? Bledsoe said she saw Oswald on the bus. She didn't say a word about his shirt until after the FBI visit. Go figure!

Well, let's see shall we.... The FBI finds fibers on the rifle, which they compare to the fibers of Oswald's arrest shirt and they find that the fibers are similar. Then they learn that various witnesses gave different descriptions of the shirt they saw Oswald wear on Friday morning, leaving them unable to argue that Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day (which btw is exactly what the WC later claimed).

So, they need to try to restore the evidentiary value of the shirt. Enter Bledsoe.... do the math

You're not making any sense. If taking the arrest shirt to Bledsoe has no relevance, as you claim, then why did they do it? There is nothing baseless about the suggestion that the FBI must have had a good reason for taking the arrest shirt all the way from Washington to Dallas to show to a witness!

while denying that you are a conspiracy theorist.

You still haven't understood that there is a difference between somebody who asks questions about the evidence and points out inconsistancies and somebody who presents a theory (which I never have) and argues in defense of that theory (which I also have never done).

But then again, for narrow minded you, anybody who doesn't instantly agree with all the BS you call evidence must be a CT, right? If fits right in with the shallow and naieve nature you display here on a daily basis

You are going round and round in inconsistent circles.  Let's focus on just one point since you are having trouble.  Here is your explanation:  "The FBI finds fibers on the rifle, which they compare to the fibers of Oswald's arrest shirt and they find that the fibers are similar. Then they learn that various witnesses gave different descriptions of the shirt they saw Oswald wear on Friday morning, leaving them unable to argue that Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day (which btw is exactly what the WC later claimed)." 

WHY for f's sake would the FBI need to demonstrate that "Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day"?  If the evidentiary value from the FBI's perspective is that the fibers link Oswald's shirt to the rifle, they don't need to prove that Oswald wore the shirt that day.  The fibers from that shirt could have gotten on the rifle on some prior occasion.  There is absolutely no need for the FBI to coerce a witness to lie about the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus.  I can't simplify it any further.  And the hilarious kicker, of course, is that the FBI didn't even suggest that the fibers proved that Oswald was wearing that particular shirt.  The entire purpose of this exercise in your conspiracy fantasy.

[Martin Weidmann]

You are going round and round in inconsistent circles.  Let's focus on just one point since you are having trouble.  Here is your explanation:  "The FBI finds fibers on the rifle, which they compare to the fibers of Oswald's arrest shirt and they find that the fibers are similar. Then they learn that various witnesses gave different descriptions of the shirt they saw Oswald wear on Friday morning, leaving them unable to argue that Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day (which btw is exactly what the WC later claimed)." 

WHY for f's sake would the FBI need to demonstrate that "Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day"?  If the evidentiary value from the FBI's perspective is that the fibers link Oswald's shirt to the rifle, they don't need to prove that Oswald wore the shirt that day.  The fibers from that shirt could have gotten on the rifle on some prior occasion.  There is absolutely no need for the FBI to coerce a witness to lie about the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus.  I can't simplify it any further.  And the hilarious kicker, of course, is that the FBI didn't even suggest that the fibers proved that Oswald was wearing that particular shirt.  The entire purpose of this exercise in your conspiracy fantasy.

WHY for f's sake would the FBI need to demonstrate that "Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day"?  If the evidentiary value from the FBI's perspective is that the fibers link Oswald's shirt to the rifle, they don't need to prove that Oswald wore the shirt that day. 

Here's what you don't understand. Saying that fibers found on the rifle are similar to those of Oswald's shirt, does not link Oswald's shirt to the rifle. What could have done that is a gunshot residue test on the shirt, but they never did that.

To link Oswald's shirt, in particular, to the rifle they needed something more, like for instance a witness stating that she saw Oswald wear that shirt on Friday morning.

The fibers from that shirt could have gotten on the rifle on some prior occasion.

You keep saying that and it is still just as meaningless as the first time you said it. Nondescript fibers that are merely similar to those of Oswald's arrest shirt (of which there were probably thousands similar shirts) that got on the rifle at some other occasion is proof of absolutely nothing. It certainly doesn't put the rifle in Oswald's hands on 11/22/63 at 12:30 PM. 

There is absolutely no need for the FBI to coerce a witness to lie about the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus.

Who said anything about coercing a witness? It's easy enough to influence a fragile old lady into believing she saw something she actually didn't see. But regardless, your disbelieve that the FBI would do something like that is belied by the fact that they actually did go to Bledsoe's house and showed her the shirt.

If, as you claim there was no need to do that, then why did they do it?

And the hilarious kicker, of course, is that the FBI didn't even suggest that the fibers proved that Oswald was wearing that particular shirt.

Indeed, they left that conclusion to the WC, after they told them that the fibers found on the rifle were similar to those of the arrest shirt and after Bledsoe, in her completely incoherent testimony, gave them an opportunity to conclude that Oswald had been wearing the same shirt the whole day. In their report they actually said that Oswald had claimed that he had changed his shirt but that witness testimony proved that was not the case.

You clearly do not understand how these kind of games are played!

[John Iacoletti]

You clearly do not understand how these kind of games are played!

Yes he does.  He plays them himself.

[Jerry Freeman]

You imply that there is something sinister about the FBI taking the shirt to Bledsoe while contending that the shirt has no evidentiary value.   

No he didn't. However...I did not just 'imply' that there was something sinister with the FBI taking the shirt out to Bledsoe's-- I stated with absolute conviction that there was. Ball's in your court.

[Walt Cakebread]

You are going round and round in inconsistent circles.  Let's focus on just one point since you are having trouble.  Here is your explanation:  "The FBI finds fibers on the rifle, which they compare to the fibers of Oswald's arrest shirt and they find that the fibers are similar. Then they learn that various witnesses gave different descriptions of the shirt they saw Oswald wear on Friday morning, leaving them unable to argue that Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day (which btw is exactly what the WC later claimed)." 

WHY for f's sake would the FBI need to demonstrate that "Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day"?  If the evidentiary value from the FBI's perspective is that the fibers link Oswald's shirt to the rifle, they don't need to prove that Oswald wore the shirt that day.  The fibers from that shirt could have gotten on the rifle on some prior occasion.  There is absolutely no need for the FBI to coerce a witness to lie about the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus.  I can't simplify it any further.  And the hilarious kicker, of course, is that the FBI didn't even suggest that the fibers proved that Oswald was wearing that particular shirt.  The entire purpose of this exercise in your conspiracy fantasy.

Here's the story that Hoover was propagating....   ( a damned lie )....

A 12-1 article in the Washington Star by Jerry O'Leary, a writer more than friendly with the FBI's Deke DeLoach, and someone upon whom the FBI regularly relies to get their stories before the public, declares: "PIECE OF OSWALD'S SHIRT FOUND SNAGGED IN RIFLE." It then goes on to claim "A fragment of Lee Harvey Oswald's shirt was snagged in the rifle that killed President John F. Kennedy, the FBI report of the assassination states. Disclosure of this evidence against the 24 year-old Oswald, himself slain two days after Mr. Kennedy's death, is regarded as one of the most solid pieces of evidence of his guilt. Officials said wisps of brown shirt material were caught in metal parts of the 6.5 mm Italian-made carbine found on the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building a few minutes after the fatal shots were fired on November 22. When Oswald was arrested two hours later, he was wearing a brown shirt of the same material. Oswald claimed he had changed his shirt in his rooming house after leaving the assassination area, but this proved to be untrue. FBI Crime Lab technicians determined by microscopic and other scientific means that the fragment of shirt material came from the shirt the ex-Marine was wearing."

The story presented  to the trusting and grieving American public at the time (December 63) said that The FBI had found a tuft of fibers on the butt plate of the TSBD carcano.  The FBI said that the carcano belonged to Lee Oswald and it was the rifle used to kill President Kennedy.  They also said that the tuft of fibers matched the shirt that Lee Oswald was wearing at the time of the murder, and that was the same shirt that Lee was wearing at the Texas Theater.

The entire tale is a damned lie.....

[Richard Smith]

WHY for f's sake would the FBI need to demonstrate that "Oswald was wearing the same shirt all day"?  If the evidentiary value from the FBI's perspective is that the fibers link Oswald's shirt to the rifle, they don't need to prove that Oswald wore the shirt that day. 

Here's what you don't understand. Saying that fibers found on the rifle are similar to those of Oswald's shirt, does not link Oswald's shirt to the rifle. What could have done that is a gunshot residue test on the shirt, but they never did that.

To link Oswald's shirt, in particular, to the rifle they needed something more, like for instance a witness stating that she saw Oswald wear that shirt on Friday morning.

The fibers from that shirt could have gotten on the rifle on some prior occasion.

You keep saying that and it is still just as meaningless as the first time you said it. Nondescript fibers that are merely similar to those of Oswald's arrest shirt (of which there were probably thousands similar shirts) that got on the rifle at some other occasion is proof of absolutely nothing. It certainly doesn't put the rifle in Oswald's hands on 11/22/63 at 12:30 PM. 

There is absolutely no need for the FBI to coerce a witness to lie about the shirt Oswald was wearing on the bus.

Who said anything about coercing a witness? It's easy enough to influence a fragile old lady into believing she saw something she actually didn't see. But regardless, your disbelieve that the FBI would do something like that is belied by the fact that they actually did go to Bledsoe's house and showed her the shirt.

If, as you claim there was no need to do that, then why did they do it?

And the hilarious kicker, of course, is that the FBI didn't even suggest that the fibers proved that Oswald was wearing that particular shirt.

Indeed, they left that conclusion to the WC, after they told them that the fibers found on the rifle were similar to those of the arrest shirt and after Bledsoe, in her completely incoherent testimony, gave them an opportunity to conclude that Oswald had been wearing the same shirt the whole day. In their report they actually said that Oswald had claimed that he had changed his shirt but that witness testimony proved that was not the case.

You clearly do not understand how these kind of games are played!

Hilarious.  The FBI has no need for anyone to confirm what shirt Oswald was wearing that day if, as you suggest, the fibers don't have evidentiary value.  They already know that the arrest shirt belongs to Oswald because he is wearing it when arrested.  They already know that the fibers are found on the rifle.  To the extent that the fibers are being used to link Oswald to the rifle, there is no need to have a witness confirm that he wore the shirt that particular day.  And if Bledsoe is not being coerced and Oswald wasn't wearing that shirt on the bus, then there is a significant risk that she confirms he was wearing a different shirt.  Why would she say otherwise? Again, however, it makes little difference what she says either because there is little value to the fiber evidence or because fibers from Oswald's shirt could have gotten on his rifle on a prior occasion.