1:25:21 long
J
errol Custer Interviews with Vince Palamara and William Law 3/15/1998 Vince Palamara
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I am posting these for ZERO money (totally free) and for research purposes only. They are now posted elsewhere, a part of this has been released on a DVD and Blu Ray, it has been almost 24 years since this was done and closing in on 59 years since the assassination; enough is enough! This was the basis for the Jerrol Custer chapter in Willliam Law's outstanding IN THE EYE OF HISTORY. I had previously interviewed Custer with Harry Livingstone 11/22/91 which is documented in HIGH TREASON 2 and KILLING THE TRUTH (Tom Wilson, later on TMWKK, was also present).Transcript
0:10
i hate to be materialistic about that i don't blame you a bit but you should look i've watched this time and time
0:16
again where people have taken advantage of you guys that's not going to happen
0:22
the honor that i'm getting from this the credentials i'm getting from this the hell of the money and i feel the same way even though this is bill's project
0:28
and he's the primary focus why's this all happen i'm honored to be here too you know i feel this is nice i feel like i mean you guys keep saying that to me
0:34
and i'm sitting here thinking jesus don't you're not saying i didn't do anything
0:39
you know i was i just did my job this is like this is like uh sitting
0:44
here this would be for me like talking to someone who had been in
0:50
attendance at lincoln's assassination yeah or he's old enough to have been there or it's like meeting one of the
0:56
beatles or something
1:07
yeah see you're even better than dealing plaza witnesses like a witness they didn't do anything you actually did something you were involved the x-rays
1:14
in the primary evidence you saw the body and those people can actually say i was just there you weren't there in the
1:19
comments oh that was so valuable if
1:34
let's start it officially because we're recording right now so one two three okay
1:41
um when were you uh alerted to go on duty
1:47
tomorrow this was between the hours of 6 30 pm to about 8 30 pm
1:54
we were lettered by the officer of the day he said that uh our services would be in
1:59
them needed in the morning to take an x-ray portable x-ray unit and numerous and i
2:05
do mean numerous cassettes that somebody of great importance was being brought to bethesda
2:12
then our services would be needed as post-mortem films what was your interaction with the
2:18
secret service agents there if any did you career in kellerman well siebert and
2:24
o'neal were literally up my nose they were attached to the hip
2:30
every place i went they went oh boy and she got to the point after the first set
2:35
of films that i had taken and headed up towards the see here's the thing the morgue
2:43
that we have the diagram here was in the basement
2:51
of the national naval medical center and the towers was up on the fourth floor where our
2:57
x-ray department so i had to get on an elevator i came out the door
3:02
here come down the hallway come around the corner go down in the
3:08
elevator went up to the main level i had to go down the main towards the
3:14
main rotunda and this is where i ran into jacqueline kennedy in the entourage that's right
3:19
because he said you had a handful of films i had a handful of films and uh o'neil was right in front of me he
3:26
stopped me as he saw them coming in and they never saw me but i saw them so he
3:32
stopped me and says stop i don't want you to run into the newspaper and you can see the the
3:37
flashes and going on when guys taking their the pictures of the kennedys
3:43
uh in fact i still remember the bloody suit that she had on
3:49
she hadn't had a chance to change right and they got onto the elevator which was
3:54
right as soon as you come in the main rotunda there's a main room here and it was just like a circular
4:02
hallway there were bank elevators that sat here on the left there was a hallway that went down the
4:10
dead center and down on the right here there were the executive offices like the commander-in-chief and
4:16
the national naval medical center and further down the hall is the emergency room
4:22
and then further down was the different offices and then one floor down was the cafeteria
4:29
and by the way in that 1988 video at that sylvia chase said now it's the cafeteria now where it used to be more
4:35
kind of if you remember that or yeah a lot of changes i understand there's a lot of trouble filming in the
4:41
uh bethesda they don't really even like people filming in there at all you know because it's a government facility yeah
4:47
yeah and if you know anything about government facilities you have to be checked upside
4:53
down and sideways and it's literally well i'm in the process of being cleared
5:00
now for a government job and i had to make a 12 page out of 12
5:06
page reference type application with all my relatives where they were
5:14
born and how old they were and the whole smear and then they go through and they make
5:20
sure that there's no i like in my college years i didn't belong to the uh sds student for
5:26
democratic society oh yeah remember that they called on so-called letterman oh
5:31
geez that was the frontrunners to the communist party oh my god absolutely
5:39
mccarthy now the city says mccarthyism oh i never forgot that oh man oh jeez so
5:45
did we cover did we cover how you came to be at the morgue yeah yes
5:51
uh it uh that i had taken the duty for one of my cohorts that it was his
5:57
anniversary and he wanted to surprise his wife and like i said i was 22 year old single
6:02
man that's four and a half hours from home i lived in a barracks
6:08
an extra duty to me was nothing duty there would you come in
6:13
looked around any necessary things you tend to be taking you took uh you carried a a beeper or you let the
6:21
officer today know where you were if they needed you for anything they called you and you slept over the barrens
6:30
well this is the question i was just thinking of tucson maybe they will cover something we were talking before
6:35
exactly how many skull fragments came in that night do you remember there's a little bit of controversy the exact number
6:40
it's kind of hard to remember but if i'm not mistaken from the next day
6:46
there was at least four that i can remember right off the top of my head okay at least four
6:56
because there were four fragments skull fragments and there was at least one two
7:03
three three small bullet fragments one
7:10
fragment about the size of my little baby finger the top half of it
7:15
and this is where i had to uh tape them to the the bond frame yeah
7:22
let's talk a little about the ebersall bust of kennedy uh let me go with a little detail about that yeah i don't
7:28
know who dr ebersol was blowing smoke up but he come in that one day and he said
7:33
that um i need you to take uh to do a special duty i have uh skull fragments here and i
7:41
have bullet fragments i want you to tape them to the bullet fragments to the skull
7:47
fragments and take x-rays out of different densities this is for abbastic kennedy
7:53
just look down again when you're in the service you don't question what your
8:00
an officer tells you to do you do it but what were the thoughts in your head when this fella came to you
8:06
and said we're making a bus to kennedy and i want you to take these fragments to pieces of scoldedness well let me put
8:12
it this way i can't say it on camera yeah okay okay i'll get you volumes
8:18
yeah i want you to do me a favor sure i'd like you to put
8:23
tell me where the wound in the head was located yeah the best of your recollection the wound in the head
8:29
yeah the best of my recollection it was in the frontal sinus on the right hand side just above the orbit
8:37
right about here okay now you claim that that's the entry wound that's the entrance okay how about the exit what
8:42
would you do the excellent one it's hard to tell because i one did not visualize it because the
8:49
body was constantly kept on its back from the main reason
8:56
you did not want to move the body as much as possible because i felt every
9:01
time i moved the body i changed the contour of the head so therefore that's why i took the
9:08
lateral films first then i took the ap film
9:15
then i took a tangential film a 10 general film is like
9:20
your you're laying the anatomical position again on the head
9:25
straight you have your defect while it's over here on the right hand
9:31
side you bring the film off to the side and you come in with an angle
9:37
just to show the gaping hole by the way those are missing too those are missing from there yes they are but
9:43
i remember previously you did say that the back of the head appeared to be gone there was no scalp there as far
9:50
here's where a lot of researchers screw up okay okay we're here to correct all that
9:56
not the back of the head okay let me get okay
10:09
okay now this is just a lateral picture now this isn't the correct side right okay
10:17
here's the back of the head right it's considered it called the occipital
10:22
region the defect
10:28
frontal temporal region now when you have that body
10:35
laying like that everybody points it and said that's the back of the head
10:40
and that's exactly what they were doing even a pathologist at night that's the
10:46
back of the head no that's not the back of that that's the top of that right okay now explain to me there's
10:53
been a lot of controversy and this is why some researchers point to forgery
10:59
that the back of his head was blown out if the back of his head was blown out why can he rest his head on that
11:05
that piece because the back of the head wasn't blown up this
11:11
was still intact and may not have been perfectly intact there was fractures in
11:18
there of course with all the destruction but this is the only region
11:24
if the back of the head was gone there would be nothing here to hold the head up but there was this would have been all
11:31
inside but there was a large defect back back there was a defect from here
11:38
to here only this was all that was that was ripped
11:45
torn it's just something an indian come in and scalped them
11:50
oh boy all right literally okay but so but it still jibes with the notion that
11:55
you saw the frontal entry wound and you still think that was an exit of some sort even if it wasn't technically back here it still made sense with
12:03
remember the trajectory 40 to 45 degrees okay okay you're going
12:12
in like this okay okay
12:17
are you blowing out the back of the head no not again okay frontal temporal region that's what's
12:24
being destroyed okay i showed you on the ap ap uh x-ray that explains all the
12:30
fractures are emanating from the front going towards the back
12:36
this is what i brought out in my book i share i told i answered many of those
12:42
questions there was at least a dozen if not more questions that i answered
12:49
in the book stating what actually is true and what actually is false
12:56
there's something else i'm going to bring out that it's going to come out later on a little
13:01
tidbit okay i had a special marker that i had that night
13:07
that i placed in all the films it wasn't visualized on any of the films that you had
13:13
it was visualized on the films that were in the archives
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it showed positioning depth
13:25
and also showed what side wow and you're going to bring this out later
13:31
i'll bring this up later in the next book okay all right enough
13:37
which i like i reiterated again i'll make sure that you'll be the first one to know
13:42
i appreciate it's fair yeah now uh when you saw the body were there
13:47
any chest marks puncture wounds there was a bruising
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on the thoracic pleural thoracic area
14:00
now i'm talking about a bruising is slight discoloration now at that time i did not notice
14:08
any particular openings all i saw was
14:14
yes i did i'll read take that back when we lifted them up to take
14:20
the skull films that's when a fragment fell out of the back of them
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let's get a picture of that i believe we have one somewhere it should be right here
14:33
and there's also been a great deal of controversy about the back one and i'd like i'd like to clear that
14:42
up here we go here it is right here all right
14:50
they're saying let's make this one who gets it they were saying this is a back one
14:55
and this is a one right
15:01
that was the one this was not alone okay what was that
15:06
a piece of blood piece of wood one thing i've always wondered about maybe you can help me clear it up a
15:12
little bit the ruler that this person i don't know who these hands belong to in this film we're
15:18
assuming is hume's in boston but there's so much controversy about it's been forged and you know to me that
15:26
ruler doesn't mark anything it's just kind of on his back
15:33
now i'm surprising this now you tell me if it seems far-fetched
15:43
i'm looking for one particular film here here it is
15:48
what's that the throat line where's it located
15:53
look at the well okay just look for a second don't don't
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try to think anything into it here's the neck right
16:05
here's the scapulas the scapulas run here
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and here don't look at the ruler per se
16:16
what if i were to take the ruler and go like this
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and remember an angling up
16:28
would that almost line up with that it would appear to if that's what we're looking at
16:35
if it's angled up i've never thought of before yeah yes
16:40
this comes from experience yeah you would know what i said
16:46
i'm not saying this is an exit wound i'm not saying it's an entrance one i'm just
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from what i see here and what i see here
16:57
kind of clicks well there's gotta be a reason for it right
17:03
you gotta remember right down through here is the toughest part of the spine with
17:09
your thoracic spine so that'll stop a fragmented bullet
17:16
specifically if it's from a distance now
17:22
while we're on photos again i've always wondered there have been people that have said this is an entrance wound
17:28
this little fleck here did you see anything like this and there again you gotta remember
17:36
when i was there the body was never turned like this okay
17:42
the body was always on its back basically
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this is what i couldn't understand whenever
17:53
you go in and take films specifically on a forensic case you do not move the body
18:03
you move it as little as possible because you can always destroy evidence
18:12
you change positions of bone you change position to the neck you
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change everything [Music] doing this
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they felt now we can play now and truthfully
18:30
that's what they're doing basically just lifting him up and
18:35
not really doing anything specific just getting pictures of it right but the bottom line is you do not believe that's
18:43
how about up here do you see this here the high select committee claimed that that was an entrance room there no okay
18:50
i don't believe that yeah okay and i can't remember who did the drawings when the house select committee used drawings
18:55
or maybe it was out of dots yeah this went from being a possible speck of blood to having a bullet entrance wound
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in the head here it is again experts
19:08
surmising they're not thinking of the simplest thing
19:14
they're not they weren't there they didn't see you realize how filthy
19:20
excuse me i shouldn't say it that way because the man was the president of the united states
19:26
but the condition of the body it was a mess
19:31
there was brain fragments clots everywhere you touched them i mean
19:37
you were totally bloody and to say
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well this is a bullet fragment and this is a scroll primer and this is this you can't say that
19:49
you'd have to go in and clean that area
19:55
have you ever watched an autopsy literally myself now
20:01
a lot of times when they think that there's a hole there
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they'll go in and they'll remove that whole area and clean it up
20:13
okay and then there's no supposition at all it's right there
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this is what the government banked on and we're talking about the back of the
20:24
head yeah as far as they have been on the experts looking in and saying oh that looks like a bullet
20:31
that can't be a fragment that can't be this why can't it
20:37
how about how about the notion that was brought out about 10 years ago it's still popular today did that some sort
20:42
of mad insertion because you can see how this is wet in a different texture than down here do you put any stock in that
20:47
or well and there again i have nothing to do with the films oh sure
20:54
all i can say i see what you're saying it looks like this was all brushed in
21:01
yes could be no i mean i don't know i see there's a lot of people because of this
21:07
picture that say they're holding up a flap of skin here
21:12
yeah with the hand right here yeah now in your opinion based on what you saw yes nothing's impossible yes it is
21:19
okay so you're saying that that is possible that is possible you know who would be perfect for this
21:25
if you could talk them into it this is floyd rabies
21:31
i'm in the process of contacting mr reed if you can talk him into this you know some of his
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roles of film disappeared did he tell you which ones
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uh he didn't mention it but some of his his roles have disappeared because there was many times when um
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it finished a role of film the fbi government came out of the tank after he rolled it up wow
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there was a lot of that in fact the first time i went up to or developed my x-rays
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i'm not sure if it was seabird or nail there's one of the two of them wanted to walk into the dark room with me and i just went no there's where you stop
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well i have to see what you're doing i said no you know you stay out there and i close the door
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that's when i took the other set of films out and put them in the box let's talk about those for a minute when
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you were going with an arm loaded films there's been
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speculation or i've read somewhere that you took extra sets of x-rays
22:34
well not extra sets i double loaded and what does double loaded mean i'm not
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putting two films in you're going to remember an x-ray cassette has two screens
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and they're activated screens when when the x-ray goes through them
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they lighten up the fluorescent just like your watch and you get an image on there and that
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image is placed on the film so if your film is a little bit too dark
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the one film is dark the one film is just right okay i understand so what did you do with these
23:14
i ran one film and put the other film in the lake book there was a process that we had was
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called an old peco unit where it was like a table where you ran your film in and underneath there was a
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light proof box you take one put it in put one in the box but you fill that one up put it over
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there same thing and i went through each film that i took
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and after everything was over and done that evening i came back and ran the film those were all good too i put them
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in one of the mailing folders tied them up and hit them on the us and then insignia
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in the department and kept them there for the longest time how long do you think they were there
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undiscovered a couple months
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and and what happened to these folks i destroyed them why'd you do that
24:08
because of the gag order that i had signed i didn't destroy them right away
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after i thought on it and pondered on it a little bit and thought well if these films would happen to the
24:21
surface along the line here somewhere they're going to trace them back to me and guess
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whose body's going to wind up in jail so eventually i destroyed them i thought
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it wasn't worthy never thought never thought that later on down the road
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that they could have been worth millions or they could have solved the whole problem
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yeah because of the missing x-rays missing materials and things that could resolve but i also could be dead
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yeah that's true too given given what you know given the fact that we all know that
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there's been several deaths over the years some unexplainable things have happened to a
25:04
lot of people that have a lot to do with this case even today 34 years later going on 35 do
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you have any fear if i were to say no i'd be lying
25:18
i still have a little bit there's still people around that don't want to be implicated
25:27
who come up with a one bullet theory i need i say more that's it
25:32
who come on bullets you have to be
25:39
somebody to stand there and blow smoke up your nose one bullet come on that bullet had to do
25:45
a fantastic dance yes
25:51
was there a george bakeman present do you remember that name his name has been tossed
25:57
you know what i think it was truthfully there was so much mass confusion going on
26:03
uh the two fbi agents were going around asking different names
26:08
these guys were twisted one way and twisted another and i think it was just
26:16
a mistake on their part one of the one of the witnesses that i
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talked to one of your colleagues has told me that he felt during the
26:27
autopsy that the body had been gotten to before it ever came into the moor
26:33
what's your opinion on that well there again
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all i can do is i can surmise to the fact that that's a good possibility because
26:45
when i was notified that the body was coming
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in i was told that the body was coming from walter reed
26:56
all right you were told by the officer of the day who was i can't remember his
27:02
name right off the top of my head wasn't smoky stover what was his name
27:07
smokey stover no this was just a uh either a jg or and
27:14
that's a lovely little and this person told you personally that my body was coming from walter reed uh
27:22
and i feel that he told me something he shouldn't have because he was later reprimanded for it
27:30
now stop and think where's walter reed
27:35
hospital alexandria right but also it's in alexandria
27:42
three initials did i say more
27:48
that's okay that's great i think it speaks volumes in itself yes so
27:54
let's go to the let's go back to the more for a second i want a little more of the atmosphere
28:00
of of the morgue i've been told by other people that were there again your
28:06
colleagues that that i've had people say was absolute pandemonium
28:11
would you say that's true would you say oh absolutely there was hollering and scramming
28:19
and orders being given and [Music] different people saying this and
28:25
different people saying that was there was there anybody in charge that you know did anybody
28:31
assume charge absolutely it was quite evident throughout the evening
28:37
and who was that jfk's personal physician so you're saying dr berkley dr george
28:43
berkeley yeah was basically because he was also an admiral too foreign
28:50
absolutely positively said the kennedy family wouldn't want that
28:56
done and i don't think you should follow that line baloney
29:01
it's a forensic pathology autopsy
29:06
you're looking for evidence you have to do that to the body you have to do it
29:12
to find out what happened and i'll bring this up as a little antidote
29:20
many times i when we're taking the different x-rays i brought certain things to uh
29:27
dr abersol's attention and i was told to shut up
29:32
do my own job my own business that that's his job let me do my job you
29:38
do your job that's fine and i walked away
29:43
is there anybody that you can recall specifically being being in the morgue that night
29:53
the only one i'm really
29:59
it has to be kennedy's physician that's the only one because he's stuck on
30:05
i mean he was he wasn't quiet at all he even made comments about everything he didn't seem
30:12
to be in any kind of shock or loss or mourning or no he seemed like he was controlling everything
30:19
every little step along every step along the way and this is one thing that i couldn't
30:24
get over i ever saw brought it out in his deposition to do when he was asked by the medical
30:31
committee was there anybody in control that night dictating to you what you couldn't do
30:36
and what you couldn't do oh absolutely not there was nobody in control that was baloney
30:42
it was so eminent everybody knew who was in control what uh
30:49
boswell what humes what was their demeanor while this was going on they did what they were told to do
30:56
and that was it do you feel that there was any kind of little scenario uh going on and that they were going too
31:02
far they were just following along trying not to make waves for for
31:08
berkeley absolutely and when they stepped over the line they
31:13
were smacked so you don't feel that they hid anything they just
31:18
followed along and did what they were told to do they did what they told to do
31:25
but it's kind of funny though later on hume's destroying his notes yes why did
31:33
he keep such detailed notes
31:38
he did it for a reason humes was a politician humes knew how to manipulate things
31:45
humes was a career person
31:51
he knew how to protect humes's back
31:57
but evidently somebody got to him higher and more powerful than he thought
32:04
and he destroyed his nerves so he had to be hiding something
32:12
common sense will tell you that yeah i think that's a good place to stop well just one more thing i just think one
32:18
more thing we'll be really getting over here let's take a couple minutes um go ahead we got 15 tomorrow yeah and
32:23
then i'll be good i just thought of a couple more things for sure about uh what's your take on the notion
32:30
about a 1500 gram brain you know the weight of the brain being like basically
32:36
above average what's your take on that well see you're delving into something that's not my expertise i really
32:43
can't go in and say oh yeah you're right there or no you're
32:49
wrong there i want this to be the utmost
32:54
truth because what i know from experience
33:00
and from the knowledge that i've picked up and i really don't know anything about
33:05
that you know i never saw the brain i didn't know any weight shape or form i knew
33:11
they were weighing particular different organs and stuff
33:17
but that's the limit that it goes okay when going back to when they first brought
33:23
the brought the cough on them and they and they took the lid off of the coffin and again we're talking about
33:30
uh not an ornate coffin lid but a cheaply made uh coffin
33:36
when they took the lid off what what do you recall that the body was wrapped in was the body in anything
33:44
i'm asking this because there's been controversy about whether the body was in a body bag or not do you remember the
33:50
body being true what struck me funny the body was totally naked totally totally there was no clothes on
33:57
it at all the only thing that i can possibly remember and honestly saying
34:04
that really stuck up was the head was completely covered
34:09
down to the neck and there was a sheet wrapped around and i could see the sheet through the
34:14
through the clear whatever it was i won't say it was plastic and i don't really remember
34:20
honestly and i thought well my god the head must be really in a disarray if they have
34:26
something like that on it do you remember if it was if it was a zippable cover did it did it runs it but you
34:32
don't remember you can't remember that did you recognize president kennedy right away was there like no question about it well as soon as uh they took
34:39
the camera off i recognized him right away yeah what i just from a human interesting point what did that feel
34:44
like just knowing that this was the main see the bad part about it is that i had met the man prior
34:51
oh well you know he had bad he had a bad back yes and i had taken some x-rays on his
34:57
back and i talked to him you had yeah i never you met him while he was alive live right
35:03
and it was just an average joe how did how did he strike you
35:08
just like i said an average person it wasn't i'm the president of the united states johnson
35:15
typical politician get away from me son kennedy wasn't that way he walked up
35:22
shook my hand and what's your name and i told him i said where you from and
35:27
i told him said how long have you been there and i told him and
35:32
he says do you have any girlfriends
35:38
then i told him and we had a heck of a conversation
35:44
but he did have an extremely bad back he did yes and that was a war injury
35:51
did you you took the x-rays of his back right that must have been extra like more poignant to see well it kind of
35:59
shocked me i had to look at him twice because
36:05
there was a deformity he didn't actually look the way he normally look
36:12
and you have to remember it's due to postmortem rigor mortis bloating
36:18
blood um bloating but he's going to look at his neck
36:23
and see how bloated the neck is due to all that trauma you can see this right now
36:29
yeah there is a picture the again the stare death photo
36:35
where there's been some speculation that is this pretty much what he looked like
36:42
would you say that that is kennedy there's been speculation throughout the
36:48
community of researchers let me say something if you look at it look at his forehand here
36:55
look at how this all seems to invent
37:02
here again you gotta remember now the mortician was there
37:10
he had putty and wax you can't see any holes here
37:16
look how thick that looks then you think that's because the mortician at this point when this
37:23
picture started started his job right well let's see that that clears up a lot because i've
37:28
never heard of that before i didn't know that the mortician had already been there and started oh yeah as soon as i
37:35
walked away from the body to the galler's fueling people yeah yeah he was right there in fact
37:41
like i'd stand there with two coffins there one that they brought them in on one
37:46
they put them in and transported them to the car to the funeral so he wasn't the same prophet so you did
37:54
so basically in the morgue that night you did see two coffins right there was the ornate coffin right and there was
38:00
the so-called cheap shipping cast right and you saw both of those right here's one thing that a lot of the researchers
38:06
keep bringing up well was there another body in there that was supposed to be baloney
38:12
no why would they put another body in it this is the president of the united
38:18
states security was so tight
38:23
in fact when every time we came up through a few i'm not sure where it's at but
38:30
there's a picture of me coming up the hall that was taken through a keyhole i see
38:37
you in ed reed right yeah right it was taking the right video it was a special adapt that was placed on a camera and
38:44
taken through a keyhole well you saw the guards all over the place nobody was
38:49
logged in and every time i literally every time i left the morgue
38:55
i had either seibert or o'neill with me so they they stayed pretty much close to you
39:00
like one was here and one was there wow they didn't leave you they followed you followed me i think if i went to the
39:07
john they would have followed me did it i'm going to ask this simply so we can clear it up for a lot of people i know i
39:12
keep harping on this but this is basically how kennedy looked right the this is not oh you know a lot
39:19
has been made because you can't see pores in his skin in this photograph right and and that they say that
39:26
there have been writers that have written that this is a composite you know why you can't see of course why i
39:32
can tell you right now just look at it look at all this
39:38
they use heavy lashes on it and they burnt the pores out there's no
39:44
detail and that's basically because of crime that's basically this flash let me show you something else
39:51
what do you think that is i don't know yeah what is that i've heard from paul o'connor that that's a
39:57
wooden structure that was not in the mark that night he he said that that would have been
40:02
outside the front door
40:08
that is like a lock
40:14
there is a screw there there's a wheel there and there's a wheel over here
40:21
it's an extra machine let's point it towards the camera real well so that we can that because
40:28
it's an action machine there's a box to hold the films
40:34
you know why you know it's an extremely shame because i put it you're the one that put it there right wow
40:40
my god that's amazing but this whole warship
40:46
and you ask any photographer if you get too close with too
40:51
strong of a flash you'll get no skin detail at all none all right
40:58
do you want skin detail when you see wax up here
41:04
no think in a three-dimensional plane
41:10
wow yeah it's something i would never have thought about some of them was yeah but i thought about it
41:16
see what i'm saying yeah what do you see what you're saying
41:22
look here see the discoloration
41:27
well now that you mentioned it yes i've looked at this photograph hundreds of times not thousands oh yeah why do you
41:32
think you have that discoloration i don't know tell me
41:38
remember i showed you the wound
41:43
you're one little picture that you had right is it that's just blood in the tissue
41:50
all right here
41:55
turn your film exactly like that see it here we go
42:06
yes there is there well
42:12
all right now i understand and you're saying by the way you're saying this is missing this x-ray
42:18
it's not in the archives i'm going to tell you that right now and basically basically for the audience what what is
42:24
this picture this is an area that i took of that particular hole
42:33
just to prove that it was where the bullet had went through and i proved it
42:39
and i shut this is what i showed every song and this is where he told me do your job that's my job to interpret
42:50
all right you see that yeah sounds good makes a lot of sense yeah yeah thanks a lot i told you i'll blow
42:55
your socks off tonight i'm telling you something else this is detailed no one's ever gone into you know no this is this
43:01
is wonderful i just got one last question i think not close somebody come to blow on the whole thing
43:10
oh yeah yeah how about this this picture right here what's this for
43:15
this right here you want blood on you is that basically what that's for okay okay okay
43:24
oh wait no no no no i take that back i take that back
43:29
[Music] look at the arms there's an arm here okay there's a shirt sleeve here oh
43:34
there's an iron here okay that's his his grains right because they they had
43:40
him on his back and they okay they turned him up so that is the proper orientation for this photo not like this
43:46
no not at all they they as i understand it they took him and raised him up off the top
43:52
turning them toward them and that's why it's so hard that's part of his arm right there there's a part of his arm
43:57
there that's why it's so hard to to distinguish in these phones because they didn't go point by point they did
44:05
things that you would normally not do i mean
44:11
they were told what they couldn't do so they they got to the point like anybody you get disgusted
44:18
and then you just put your ties and play yeah so
44:24
that's what they're doing you don't think this was any attempt at all to to fabricate or alter or make it so that
44:30
that people couldn't understand that they just got tired of what was going on being told what to do not allowed to do
44:35
their jobs and so that's why these autopsy photographs come out the way they have right
44:41
that's my opinion this one looks like this one this one
44:47
is very important tell us why because it's missing
44:53
and again what does it show it shows bullet hole where a bullet hole
44:59
shouldn't be and they kept saying oh no that's not a
45:04
bull at all and you can see fragmentation of the bone here
45:10
if this was better quality you would also see bullet fragments throughout it this is
45:16
all kind of blurred there's no detail whatsoever well what part of the
45:22
for the audience again what part of the body are we looking at cervical spine cervical spine lower cervical spine this
45:29
is where it would be c 7667
45:36
that's just from the neck down what that what what are we looking at the lower
45:43
back there are seven cervical vertebrae there are 12 thoracic vertebrae
45:50
so this two vertebrae here are six and seven
45:55
they're two above t1 okay okay all right
46:01
right here alone would have paralyzed him okay
46:07
that was never brought up okay okay so you're saying in one
46:14
respect you would have survived the throat wound but as far as that goes he probably would have been
46:19
he would have been like fdr so to speak as far as wow now we've seen how he's um how he's when
46:27
he comes out from the road he's just like this yeah like clocks like that now that's called the
46:33
it's been uh the allegation is yeah that that's the thor burn
46:38
position yeah and and his arms went up like this do you feel that there's any possibility of that because of that one
46:45
that that the nerves went like this and that's why you don't see him grabbing his throat a lot of people say that he
46:50
grabs you he didn't grab his throat his fists come up he goes i guess his arms are up like this in a protective
46:57
almost football stance like all right let me show you something i don't want a mark right now
47:03
uh how you have your cervical spine
47:08
this is very you have your phosphate here for us here
47:15
you have a spinal cord coming through plus you have nerves
47:21
that come out here just like tree trunks when you hit the spinal cord
47:28
you short circuit everything and that brings everything up so let's let's show that
47:34
to the camera okay this is the drone right and so your tendency to bring up
47:41
so so basically the shock from the bullet made it like this right but not necessarily in the forward position
47:48
where it would well i can't attest to it right i know this is opinion but but you do
47:55
know you are in the medical field right and the nerves will make you do that definitely okay
48:02
good enough okay jesus i think we covered quite a bit yeah all right all right very good okay
48:08
let's wrap the camera up sounds good and we'll oh it's just going to be long
48:14
so what it is very good we can make a double tape
48:20
i figure it's at least three hours long now i'm sorry
48:26
well we took little breaks but this is this has been good
48:34
very happy about this okay very good i got this in the shot okay i'll tell you what um
48:41
one two three go tell you what jerry tell us a little bit about this picture i this is a picture of myself from
48:47
william reed who was a student that night in november of 63. this was taken
48:54
during uh the first trip back to the x-ray department
48:59
by a reporter that had a special lens attachment that shot through a keyhole
49:06
you can see myself in reed coming down the hall and you'll see the heads of a few of the
49:12
guards there was a marine guard there was a navy garden an army guard it was there
49:17
also um security was pretty tight that evening
49:22
so no reporters were actually allowed in and around the moor
49:28
area there anything else you need to know no that's about it i guess we can uh
49:34
start whenever you're ready you want the next picture uh yeah maybe that would be good this is the second photo from life
49:41
tell us a little bit about this picture i this is the same
49:47
the same people in the picture uh in fact
49:52
if you'll notice that was the officer of the day that informed me
49:59
that uh jfk was coming in from walter reed i do not know we still remember what the
50:05
man's name was but i'm sure that that can be found on quite easily and what night were these taken on
50:12
the night of the morning uh the night of the uh autopsy so this was taken on
50:17
november 22 19 november 22 1963.
50:24
okay very good we got it yes have we stopped the camera now um
50:30
it doesn't matter this could be edited so we can just start you know questions and stuff well now let's
50:35
get it off the picture now and so that we can all get in the frame again yeah i did i got it ready oh okay
50:41
while i'm sitting down i'll be up here you can get out there oh yeah
50:48
here we go okay we need to make sure i'm not blocking that he is the main subject no no he is
50:54
he's he's we're gonna he's he's main in there that's good questions
51:01
now let's uh let's start for the timing sequence of when
51:07
just to clarify a little bit about the point where you had x-rays in
51:12
your arms and you were going down the hallway and you saw jacqueline kennedy i'll let you
51:18
tell it in your own words i'd like to have more on that
51:24
all right uh we had i'm not sure it was seibert or o'neill but one of the two of the fbi agents were with us at the time
51:32
they happened to stop us just before we came into the rotunda
51:37
and we saw the entourage of jacqueline kennedy bobby kennedy was there
51:42
and were encircled with uh newspapermen and they were taking pictures in fact a little tidbit for yourself is
51:50
that during that time also dennis david
51:55
was up on the second floor looking out the window and witnessed
52:02
the entourage calling in and he also knew at the same time
52:07
that the body was in the morgue so he realized there were two puffins
52:14
he's told me that yes he's personally told me that what was your feelings when
52:20
you came out of there with an arm load of x-rays and and you see jacqueline kennedy
52:26
coming in the front door it sort of surprised me in effect and i
52:32
knew in fact if you were to see my appearance at that time
52:39
my white smock that i had on that was in the pictures was bloody
52:45
and i had to literally destroy it so i was covered with blood
52:51
and i had to clean the x-rays off when i got back up to the department
52:57
so she would have known had to have known or surmised
53:02
that i was doing something oh truthfully i don't think she knew
53:08
that the body was there you don't no i think she thought the body was with her
53:15
at that time so the body had to be separated from her at one time or another
53:21
beyond her knowing what was going on
53:26
tell you what um i want to ask you do you think the body was tampered with in any fashion
53:34
i'm not i know this is opinion but but you are a medical person
53:41
let's speculate okay let's put it this way let's put it this way
53:47
with as much stuff as much cover-up as much influence
53:55
there was pressure that was on that night i wouldn't put her to pass them
54:06
i had an inexperienced radiologist
54:12
they told them to look for bullets that went in and didn't come on
54:19
and a forensic pathologist would look at that person and say you're crazy
54:25
we're looking for tracking entrance exits degree
54:30
of inclination they have two administrative
54:37
pathologists that hadn't done autopsies in umpteen years
54:44
all they did was process the paperwork
54:49
and they've never done a forensic autopsy
54:54
they had an influencing force in the gallery
55:00
that literally guided the autopsy throughout the evening
55:08
they had two two fbi agents
55:14
that created their own little pandemonium by
55:20
questioning people that night well now let's back up a little when you say that there was an influence in the gallery
55:27
are you talking about berkeley are you talking about someone else let's clarify that a little bit well let's
55:33
just put it this way i'm talking about jfk's personal physician and he let it
55:38
known be known that night i am jfk's personal physician
55:46
you will listen to what i say you will do what i say
55:53
okay and on the next point um continue with what you were going to say
55:59
about the the secret service agents did you say fbi no their wire secret service there
56:07
were you familiar with them did they really no they are they didn't quite
56:12
get involved with us they protect pretty much with the joint chiefs and uh but they were they there in the game i seem
56:18
to remember seeing the other two gentlemen there also but i know for a fact
56:24
that seibert and me over there because they were attached to my hip okay
56:29
they were literally how can i say uh
56:35
delegated to stay with me what was their what was their demeanor they filed a report
56:42
where they wrote surgery of the head area and there's been speculation that they
56:47
wrote that because they heard it from a doctor that was that was there at the autopsy all right now here's the thing
56:54
you have to remember these two gentlemen are laymen
57:00
when an autopsy is performed surgery of the wounds are performed
57:09
so there's a possibility they could have heard it from boswell or humes
57:14
or i think at that time because he arrived later on and he was more
57:20
aggressive we're talking about think now right he was more aggressive
57:25
in his mannerisms and procedure than boswell and humes boswell
57:33
and humes were like puppets did he seem to be frustrated by
57:38
by being told no you can't do this or you shouldn't do that or only take this so
57:43
far um that's kind of difficult to remember because
57:50
he did what he was told and if he was frustrated he kind of hit it
57:56
so he just basically went along like he went along humes he didn't he didn't put up a bus
58:02
i i want to get to to how they must have been all of you must have been under extreme pressure oh we were
58:09
being watched constantly everybody watched us there was different times when
58:16
i literally had to scream at people to move in that close
58:23
area you're taking x-rays which are you have a machine
58:29
producing ionizing radiation and you have to be
58:34
within a distance of six feet to be within a safe area
58:41
just to give you a for instance if you would go today have a barium enema
58:48
you would actually be sterile for six months a lot of people don't know that
58:54
really stability for six months
59:01
now this is what i can get a little technical here but this is with an 18 inch
59:07
focal film distance on the tube itself or target film
59:13
distance let's put it down where you have the anode which is like a little wire and then you have a tungsten target
59:19
and this is fires electrons across and this is what produces the
59:25
radiation okay i understand and this is the older
59:33
floral tubes so this would coincide with that time in 63 right
59:38
now you were you were there
59:44
you know about the events of that night
59:50
let's turn the camera off for a minute because i i let's just let it run i forgot the question i was going to ask
59:57
i have something go you fill it in okay um are you aware the allegations of uh
1:00:03
was it i don't know it was an admiral or captain david osborne about the bullet falling out of the body
1:00:08
during the autopsy i guess when they lifted them up did you see a whole bullet or a fragment
1:00:13
that would fall out of prison well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized
1:00:20
a real lord right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps
1:00:27
forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab
1:00:32
and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water now now this is
1:00:39
this the the bullet now you when you were doing the x-rays and and you had him on the table and
1:00:45
moving him around didn't you tell me at some point in some of our earlier conversations
1:00:51
that a bullet fragment fell out of the president this was
1:00:57
this was the time that they found that okay and what happened what was their demeanor
1:01:02
what was what happened when that bullet fragment fell out the i called
1:01:08
one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists sermons said hey we have a bullet here
1:01:13
as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they
1:01:20
picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
1:01:26
because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a friend so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a
1:01:33
sizeable fragment of it was well let's
1:01:38
see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh
1:01:44
it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet okay what but it wasn't complete because
1:01:51
there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet just for clarification what area of the body did
1:01:58
it fall out that was the upper thoracic the upper back okay so so it fell out it
1:02:04
literally fell out of the back room right all right well now the single bullet theory
1:02:11
would have us believe that the bullet went in came out his throat
1:02:17
hit conley in the in the right armpit came out broke his left wrist and they
1:02:23
cut the radial nerve and went into his leg so if you're telling us
1:02:28
that that the bullet fragment fell out of the back that blows the single bullet theory to
1:02:33
hell right there right and also the fact it was too low on the back to exit the neck you know as far as the right to
1:02:40
left trajectory vertical on horizontal too and you're absolutely certain
1:02:45
this bullet fragment fell out of the back absolutely the back moved itself out of the bathroom we lifted them up
1:02:51
man boom and that's where it come on that's corroboration for david osborne too
1:02:56
yeah that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal right that's something that that i've wanted they
1:03:02
documented everything that happened that evening
1:03:07
okay this will be you this is a break hello
1:03:16
you break we'll pick it up with with james right okay okay
1:03:24
yeah am i am i all right yes i'm not blocking you're fine he's the vocal
1:03:31
okay one two go
1:03:36
you want me to bring in the bud uh mr jenkins are you finished with uh
1:03:41
we're talking about yes uh just in fact in everything that occurred that night
1:03:47
uh siebert and o'neill documented everything somebody got up and left they documented
1:03:52
it so they were there documenting everything everything now to my
1:03:58
understanding the log book there was a log book that is normally kept of people that go in and out
1:04:04
of of the area is that correct right now as i understand it
1:04:10
that's missing it's gone and has been missing since that night correct if paul connor memorized the number remember
1:04:16
that is correct and he could do it from memory right yeah it was gone it's totally disappeared what do you feel about that
1:04:23
that's part of the up they don't want people to know this is why
1:04:28
the chief was taken care of literally he actually had photographic evidence
1:04:36
they didn't want to be they didn't want out and by the chief who are you talking about chief mitchell
1:04:42
now i know we went into chief pitzer um a little bit last night
1:04:48
and maybe we've covered him enough but
1:04:53
dennis david who who was pitzer he was
1:04:58
pitcher was a mentor to dennis david and they were and they were basically best friends right
1:05:04
i've been told by him that that that he helped edit film
1:05:09
correct that night um and there's been no cooperation from that
1:05:14
uh for that um except that you you've said that you you saw him you do remember him
1:05:21
absolutely filming right and he dennis david also told me
1:05:28
that he saw pictures of a wound in the side of the president's head a small
1:05:34
bullet wound now you're going to remember something dennis david
1:05:40
is a layman his anatomy sometimes can be a little evil not to be
1:05:46
desired when he considered the side of the head could be here
1:05:52
or here all right but i would say the side of the head would be the temporal region there was
1:05:58
no bullet wounds here really okay he did mention on anyone on a certain tv documentary he did point to
1:06:05
here as far as what he said was the entrance wound and it appeared president kennedy was shot from the front viewing
1:06:11
this film right yeah so would you say that's correct i would say that's pretty close to where
1:06:17
it was when you're discussing something with somebody
1:06:23
you don't actually hit it right on you can come off to the side a little bit and see where i'm at
1:06:30
actually it was right in here you could see where this the fragment is where it went in
1:06:37
the destruction you had the picture
1:06:44
watch where the lines emanate from there's a focal point
1:06:49
that's the shell entrance back to the same simple theory
1:06:55
look at what you have it's as plain as the nose on your face dumpster might as well the boy looked
1:07:02
like at the back of the head there no look at your fracture
1:07:08
where do they come from where do they start at where's all the damage it
1:07:15
you see damage on the frontal sinuses you see damage on the orbit
1:07:22
the floor of the orbit the orbital ridge
1:07:27
if a bullet goes in the front you'd have fracturing in that area the
1:07:33
bullet would come out that front go in at the back and come
1:07:38
out that front you wouldn't have no orbital area or the frontal sign that's it
1:07:44
if you've ever seen anybody that has been shot in the back of the head and the bullet accident from the face
1:07:50
there's not much of the face left and you've seen such things i've seen such things so you would know basically what
1:07:57
a bullet would do if it hit you in the back of the head correct so you would know what to look for and
1:08:02
you could tell this man was hitting the back of the head there wouldn't be any question in your mind right you'd see all the facial damage
1:08:09
when a bullet goes in it expands destroys tissue you have fragments bullets tissue bone
1:08:17
coming forward all that is one big mass
1:08:22
and it just brings everything and this is not indicative of someone who was shot no this would all be gone all right what
1:08:28
would you say what you're going to get is people that are going to say what it was a steel jacket a bullet it was it
1:08:35
was made to stay in place we're talking about the carcano now okay that's fine let them say that
1:08:42
explain away all the fragments yeah there's dust like fragments here all
1:08:47
over the place if you had a steel jacket a bullet that remained intact or partially intact
1:08:54
99 intact the steel jacketed bullet is meant to go in
1:08:59
kill and come back out so you're not going to see fragments you're not going to see dust
1:09:05
particles right but not that much and you wouldn't see that sizeable
1:09:11
fragments in there like that that bullet went in and exploded
1:09:18
that's what it's used for and what about the notion i know you said something yesterday briefly about his uh eye was
1:09:24
what hanging out right right and that's basically from the destruction
1:09:31
of all the tendons and ligaments within the eye and the muscles that were
1:09:36
destroyed from being severed on the bullet at one end that's what sam kinney said the
1:09:41
driver of the fall car when he first saw the parking he said that his right eye was on his chin right
1:09:46
literally it went straight up wow and there was nothing to hold it
1:09:53
the only thing that held it is maybe a few small muscles that one torn in the skin itself
1:10:00
here you can see the eye was placed back like i said last night the mortician was already here
1:10:07
he had started his work after i had completed mine
1:10:13
all right okay that's why i can't say i really truthfully have nothing to do
1:10:18
with these photos and i can't authenticate them one way or
1:10:25
