Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Moore apparently was referring to the Thornton Freeway sign, which has highway numbers on it.



It could be Moore in the 1960s was familiar with the sign being called Thornton, but by the 1980s wasn't able to recall the term Thornton.

Moore wasn't side-to to the limousine, so his estimation that the President "had reached the Thronton Freeway sign" at the moment of the first shot would have been from an oblique view. It seems to work well with a first shot in the Z150s, being heard by some about Z161. A first shot in the Z200s would probably mean the President was blocked from Moore's view by the Queen Mary and the agents stood on the car's running boards.

The cluster sign stand you refer to could not be characterized as a "highway marker sign". The "RL Thornton Freeway" sign refers to a highway.

My Reply#23 says that Moore said a small highway marker sign, in front of the TSBD.
The twin cluster sign stand a half car length past the signals has nothing but highway markers, about 14 of them.
The Thornton sign is not a small highway marker, but as u say it has 6 little highway markers below.
Strange, the last time i looked at the FBI report it had two errors, it nominated the Thornton sign, &, it had Moore standing near the wrong corner, someone has doctored the wording.
Moore said he was standing 6 or 8 paces out into the intersection from the southeast corner.
And, he said he could see all of the action down Elm St, subject of course as u say to being blocked by Queen Mary & Co.
And, if the JFK limo had just then straightened on Elm, then the question of judging distance doesnt rear its ugly head.

Is Thornton a Freeway or is it a turnpike?  Or is Stemmons a turnpike, praps a long way further north.
The furtherest sign says that there is some kind of turnpike before Fort Worth.

Oswald shot-1. JFK at distance one limo length past the signals. Ricochets off western side of western signal arm guy rod. Hull found at SN.
Oswald shot-1. Oswald fired at T137 which is say Z112, slug lands at T138 ie Z113, noise arrives at T139 ie Z114.
Max Holland says shot-1 was at time Z107-8.
Dale Myers says that shot-1 was at i think T150 or some silly such late number. No it was at T138.
Oswald shot-1. A spray of fine lead hits the back of JFK's head (XRays).
Remnant slug makes non-round hole in limo floor (photo), & probly hits driveshaft & road (& aint found).
The FMJ broke in 2 as is usual (CE567 CE569 found in limo).

Oswald shot-2. JFK at time & distance Z218 (the magic bullet)(found). Hull found at SN.

Hickey shot-1. JFK at time & distance Z313, blows some of JFK's head off (small lead fragments found in head)'
Hickey shot-1. Remnant slug veered 6 deg & cracked glass (& aint found).
Hickey shot-2. JFK at time Z316 (slug makes dent in chrome trim)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-3. JFK at time Z319 (slug hits tarmac Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-4. JFK at time Z321 (slug hits curb Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-5. JFK at time Z324 (slug hits grass)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-6. JFK at time Z327 (if Hickey fired 6 shots)(slug hits curb Main St)(possibly wounded Tague).
[edit][i have now established that it was shot-6 or at least the last shot that was the JFK headshot, ie shot-5 dented the chrome trim, shot-1 possibly wounded Tague etc.][see my thread Bronson Saw Hickey Shoot JFK.]
None of the 5 or 6 hulls are found. They must have somehow stayed in Queen Mary, & were picked up by Agents on the way to Parklands, & secreted.
The AR15 01 fired at 400 rps (but zero footages on youtube) & would have ejected the hulls say half the distance of modern AR15's which fired at 1200 rps (when autos were still legal)(lots of footages of ejections & ejaculations on youtube).

[Jerry Organ]

My Reply#23 says that Moore said a small highway marker sign, in front of the TSBD.

Notice Moore refers to the sign in the singular.

The twin cluster sign stand a half car length past the signals has nothing but highway markers, about 14 of them.

Would be hard to refer to such a sign in the singular.

The Thornton sign is not a small highway marker, but as u say it has 6 little highway markers below.

Moore refers twice to the sign being just a highway marker.



He refers to a "small number sign" only after he first refers to the highway marker.

Strange, the last time i looked at the FBI report it had two errors, it nominated the Thornton sign,

I highly doubt an agent would just arbitrarily write down Thornton sign.

&, it had Moore standing near the wrong corner, someone has doctored the wording.
Moore said he was standing 6 or 8 paces out into the intersection from the southeast corner.

The report likewise has Moore at the southeast corner.

And, he said he could see all of the action down Elm St, subject of course as u say to being blocked by Queen Mary & Co.
And, if the JFK limo had just then straightened on Elm, then the question of judging distance doesnt rear its ugly head.

Is Thornton a Freeway or is it a turnpike?  Or is Stemmons a turnpike, praps a long way further north.
The furtherest sign says that there is some kind of turnpike before Fort Worth.

There's a handy exit ramp for folks being misled by your theory.

Oswald shot-1. JFK at distance one limo length past the signals. Ricochets off western side of western signal arm guy rod. Hull found at SN.
Oswald shot-1. Oswald fired at T137 which is say Z112, slug lands at T138 ie Z113, noise arrives at T139 ie Z114.
Max Holland says shot-1 was at time Z107-8.
Dale Myers says that shot-1 was at i think T150 or some silly such late number. No it was at T138.

Tina Towner (who filmed the frame T138) said the first shot occurred after she stopped filming. She said she was getting ready to leave, though she might have meant she was mentally turning her thoughts towards leaving. Zapruder never said the first shot occurred before he began filming. But I guess they're "silly".

Oswald shot-1. A spray of fine lead hits the back of JFK's head (XRays).
Remnant slug makes non-round hole in limo floor (photo), & probly hits driveshaft & road (& aint found).
The FMJ broke in 2 as is usual (CE567 CE569 found in limo).

Oswald shot-2. JFK at time & distance Z218 (the magic bullet)(found). Hull found at SN.

Hickey shot-1. JFK at time & distance Z313, blows some of JFK's head off (small lead fragments found in head)'
Hickey shot-1. Remnant slug veered 6 deg & cracked glass (& aint found).
Hickey shot-2. JFK at time Z316 (slug makes dent in chrome trim)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-3. JFK at time Z319 (slug hits tarmac Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-4. JFK at time Z321 (slug hits curb Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-5. JFK at time Z324 (slug hits grass)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-6. JFK at time Z327 (if Hickey fired 6 shots)(slug hits curb Main St)(possibly wounded Tague).

The Bronson film shows Hickey at a height such that his rifle could not go above the Queen Mary's windshield, let alone the upraised sun-visors.

From the Pat Speer site.

From the Pat Speer site.

Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

None of the 5 or 6 hulls are found. They must have somehow stayed in Queen Mary, & were picked up by Agents on the way to Parklands, & secreted.
The AR15 01 fired at 400 rps (but zero footages on youtube) & would have ejected the hulls say half the distance of modern AR15's which fired at 1200 rps (when autos were still legal)(lots of footages of ejections & ejaculations on youtube).

Your theory is mental ejaculation.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Your "singular" semantic argument gets 0 out of 10 from me.
Likewise your "Thornton" argument gets 0 out of 10.
I will give u a 10 out of 10 for the FBI report having the correct SE corner (it must have been me that was confused by Moore's word "cater").
I will give u 1 out of 10 for saying that Towner stopped filming before shot-1, if indeed she ever said that.
But i remember her saying that she couldnt recall whether it was just before or just after. And my film analysis says JFK was on Oswald's sight line to the signal arm at T137, slug arives at T138, sound arrives at T139, Towner finishes at T142 which is 3 frames after, but allowing 1 frame to reach Towner's brain, & allowing 1 frame for the ear part of the brain to tell the Towner part of the brain, then Towner "hears" shot-1 at T141, almost a draw.

I will give u 10 out of 10 for saying that Donahue drew Hickey high up to not only help his needed wound traject but also to get clearance over the windshield.
I have previously shown in my "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode" thread that the AR15 needed to be more than 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground), not Donahue's 18" (cant remember his exact number)(here i did not look into Donahue's wound trajectory).

The Bronson frame supposedly showing Hickey sitting at Z313 i have explained to be later than Z313. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
And Hickey was half standing in that Bronson frame, Bennett was the one sitting low down.
I have explained all of that in my Bronson threads.
The superior 2019 Bronson frame (of that there inferior 2017 Bronson frame from Robin Unger's gallery) shows that the AR15 was rapidly swinging up at 45 deg. The frame that u tout that sinks the Hickey theory actually reinforces the Hickey theory.

I dont know why Zapruder & many others did not hear shot-1 being at Z113. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
But many (including i think Zapruder) said that the first shot was at Z210 to Z230.
I think that this deafness might have been due to peer pressure & the passage of time.
And due to FBI etc pressure pushing questions & even answers the way they liked.
U will recall that the FBI could have questioned everyone near the signals etc but they questioned very few.
And these A-grade witnesses were asked questions such as "did u see anyone strange in the TSBD".
And "where were u standing".
And "how many shots did u hear".
Thank u mam, that will be all, oh, just one more thing, "what did u have for breakfast".

I forgive Donahue for his silly drawing. He is one of my heroes, having found that Hickey fired the headshot.
And Max Holland is a hero, for finding that shot-1 ricocheted off the signals (& i forgive Max for being a LNer).
And Colin McLaren is a hero (alltho i cant remember what his contribution was)(i think his only contribution was to draw attention to Donahue & Holland).

And i am a hero, for finding that Hickey fired a plurality of shots, alltho Floyd Boring was the one who first mentioned it many years ago, albeit to poo poo the possibility that Hickey fired, he said that if Hickey fired he almost certainly would have had the AR15 in AUTO, & that Hickey would have fired 2 or 3 shots not 1 shot. However i didnt know of Boring until this week. I figured it out myself. Anyhow that's my theory. It can be called mental ejaculation.

I bring certain skills. My background includes road design. Traffic accident analysis. Design of drain inlets & systems. Surveying. Design, drawing, drafting, CAD. Hence i find it easy to
look into much of this stuff.
Mostly i reckon that i can spot the difference tween truth & camel spombleprofglidnoctobuns. Otherwise i would be a CTer or a LNer.

[Jerry Organ]

Your "singular" semantic argument gets 0 out of 10 from me.
Likewise your "Thornton" argument gets 0 out of 10.

You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.

I will give u a 10 out of 10 for the FBI report having the correct SE corner (it must have been me that was confused by Moore's word "cater").
I will give u 1 out of 10 for saying that Towner stopped filming before shot-1, if indeed she ever said that.
But i remember her saying that she couldnt recall whether it was just before or just after.

Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."

And my film analysis says JFK was on Oswald's sight line to the signal arm at T137, slug arives at T138, sound arrives at T139, Towner finishes at T142 which is 3 frames after, but allowing 1 frame to reach Towner's brain, & allowing 1 frame for the ear part of the brain to tell the Towner part of the brain, then Towner "hears" shot-1 at T141, almost a draw.

I will give u 10 out of 10 for saying that Donahue drew Hickey high up to not only help his needed wound traject but also to get clearance over the windshield.
I have previously shown in my "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode" thread that the AR15 needed to be more than 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground), not Donahue's 18" (cant remember his exact number)(here i did not look into Donahue's wound trajectory).

The Bronson frame supposedly showing Hickey sitting at Z313 i have explained to be later than Z313. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).

From the Pat Speer site.

From the Pat Speer site.

Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

Sorry but the frame presented by Pat Speer is indeed the Bronson frame that corresponds to Z313.



Kenneth Weissman (KSW Consulting LLC) analysis 2020.

In this Bronson frame, Hickey is about a half-head higher and to camera-right of Bennett, Bennett being the figure above the camera-right crack of the rear door in the superimposed Donahue drawing. A rifle held at Hickey's shoulder level would fire a bullet to Kennedy's shull that would go through the Queen Mary's windshield.

And Hickey was half standing in that Bronson frame, Bennett was the one sitting low down.
I have explained all of that in my Bronson threads.

Yes, a website had an arrow for Hickey that pointed to Bennett.

The superior 2019 Bronson frame (of that there inferior 2017 Bronson frame from Robin Unger's gallery) shows that the AR15 was rapidly swinging up at 45 deg. The frame that u tout that sinks the Hickey theory actually reinforces the Hickey theory.

Weissman used a better-quality frame and determined the linear "rifle" features in an earlier frame capture were "some grain clumping".

I dont know why Zapruder & many others did not hear shot-1 being at Z113. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
But many (including i think Zapruder) said that the first shot was at Z210 to Z230.
I think that this deafness might have been due to peer pressure & the passage of time.
And due to FBI etc pressure pushing questions & even answers the way they liked.

Marilyn Sitzman, who steadied Zapruder and would have heard the sound of the camera motor, said:

    "and just as the motorcycles ... started down the hill, he started taking
     pictures then ... There was noting unusual until the first sound."

U will recall that the FBI could have questioned everyone near the signals etc but they questioned very few.
And these A-grade witnesses were asked questions such as "did u see anyone strange in the TSBD".
And "where were u standing".
And "how many shots did u hear".
Thank u mam, that will be all, oh, just one more thing, "what did u have for breakfast".

You get to dismiss testimony and opinion contrary to your pet theory because authorities were disingenuous.

I forgive Donahue for his silly drawing. He is one of my heroes, having found that Hickey fired the headshot.
And Max Holland is a hero, for finding that shot-1 ricocheted off the signals (& i forgive Max for being a LNer).
And Colin McLaren is a hero (alltho i cant remember what his contribution was)(i think his only contribution was to draw attention to Donahue & Holland).

And those "heroes" have statues with manure spreaders for pedestals.

And i am a hero,

It's your theory that's a zero.

for finding that Hickey fired a plurality of shots, alltho Floyd Boring was the one who first mentioned it many years ago, albeit to poo poo the possibility that Hickey fired, he said that if Hickey fired he almost certainly would have had the AR15 in AUTO, & that Hickey would have fired 2 or 3 shots not 1 shot. However i didnt know of Boring until this week. I figured it out myself. Anyhow that's my theory. It can be called mental ejaculation.

I bring certain skills. My background includes road design. Traffic accident analysis. Design of drain inlets & systems. Surveying. Design, drawing, drafting, CAD. Hence i find it easy to
look into much of this stuff.
Mostly i reckon that i can spot the difference tween truth & camel spombleprofglidnoctobuns. Otherwise i would be a CTer or a LNer.

You're a pseudo-fence-sitter. Like the "Independent" voter who actually favors one party but are just too lazy or disingenuous to give an answer. They think it makes them more "clever" and "open-minded" than the Decided.

[Mark Tyler]

You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.

Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."

Hi Jerry.  I've not been able to track down many early Tina Towner interviews, just Life magazine and Teen magazine from 1967-1968.  She does seem clear that the shooting started after her filming stopped.  Are there any other interviews I have missed from the 1960's or 1970's that you know of?

Do you have any strong views on when the first shot was fired or do you think the evidence is too ambiguous to be certain?

[Mark Tyler]

At 1:20 Connally says …… "we had just turned the corner, we heard a shot…."
Notice that Connally is confused, he thinks that JFK had been badly wounded by the first shot, but in fact JFK & Connally had been both hit by the magic bullet ie the 2nd shot at Z218.

Hi Marjan.  This bedside interview is a great reminder of the fact that John Connally had a near death experience and may not be the best witness in the world.  Someone told me a few months ago to completely ignore everything he said because he was too confused to be reliable and Nellie Connally had groomed him into believing what she heard which was two shots in quick succession with the first hitting JFK and the second hitting Connally.

On the other hand he did mention looking back at JFK which he definitely did do in the Zapruder film by frame Z275:


However, most people think he was hit by Z225 (Connally himself studied the Z-film for the Warren Commission and said he was hit by Z230).  I feel some of his statements ring true, but others are confused (such as he said he looked over to his left at JFK, when actually he looked over to his right).

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.
Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."

My only memory of Tina re shot-1 is that (i think it was in a modern youtube interview) she said that she wasn’t sure whether just before or just after. I have no knowledge of any other wordage, & i am surprised that she said a few second after or  four sec after.  Back in february i spent a whole day analysing the JFK pozzy relative to the painted white striped lane lines & i found that JFK was on the Carcano to signal arm line at Towner T137, slug hit at T138, sound hit at T139.  And Tina would have "heard" at say T141.  And T142 was her last frame.  A very accurate 3D analysis might show that my geometry calculations were out a foot or two, which would equate to a frame or two.
And i didn’t do an accurate assessment of limo speed etc to calculate when T137-138-139 might have happened in relation to Zapruder's footage, ie if Zapruder had started that sequence earlier.  I simply roughly worked it out based on i think 1 foot of limo travel per Zapruder frame, which gave me Z112-113-114.  Hence that could be a long way out timewise, which aint very important, the main thing being exactly where not when, the where being that shot-1 hit the signal arm, & of course that being the when i suppose.

In Reply#27 i alerted this forum to a new witness Howard Whatley who said that the shot-1 was just as the limo straightened up in Elm St. And he was standing out in the intersection near the north west corner, ie much closer than Moore near the south east corner.

From the Pat Speer site.

From the Pat Speer site.

Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

I have drawn proper drawings.  The AR15 needed to be at least 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground).  And i have shown that the AR15 in Donahue's drawing (which is drawn 10" higher than the windshield) would be at chest height on Hickey if Hickey were standing on carpet.
And, nearly forgot, if Queen Mary were braking (which it was) then the front might sink an inch & rear might rise an inch, which brings that there  3" down to praps 1".  However me myself i reckon that the AR15 was at say 10", the 1" being the minimum.

Sorry but the frame presented by Pat Speer is indeed the Bronson frame that corresponds to Z313.

Now, that is the only legitimate concern arising from all of your wordage.  I was thinking yesterday that i needed to have another look at where Z313 sits in the Bronson footage. Months ago i worked out that that Bronson frame was at about Z315.  That’s a tight squeeze but do-able if Hickey fired one shot, ie Hickey would be standing at Z313 & sitting at Z315.  But yesterday i was thinking that my theory that Hickey fired an auto burst of 6 shots needed that Bronson frame to be at say Z329.  I will have to re-visit that stuff.
It would be nice if The 6th Floor Museum made public its superior 2019 copies of the Bronson frames (20 frames).

Kenneth Weissman (KSW Consulting LLC) analysis 2020.
In this Bronson frame, Hickey is about a half-head higher and to camera-right of Bennett, Bennett being the figure above the camera-right crack of the rear door in the superimposed Donahue drawing. A rifle held at Hickey's shoulder level would fire a bullet to Kennedy's skull that would go through the Queen Mary's windshield.
Yes, a website had an arrow for Hickey that pointed to Bennett.

I dealt with this stuff in my Reply#37 in my thread re "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?".  Here is the drawing, & today i added the yellow & green lines.  When Hickey was half sitting half standing on the 2 leather cases on the back seat the top of Hickey's head was level with the bottom of the heads of the standing Agents (see yellow ovals). 
I have drawn Bennett's head (yellow oval) level with the top of the windshield, however in photos it was below the windshield (not important here). The Secret Service said that had JFK been sitting in Queen Mary his head would have been 62" above the road, ie 2" above the windshield, ie 9.22" above the level of JFK's head in the JFK limo.  But that was based on Hess & Eisenhardt's estimate of 52.78" for JFK's head in the limo, which is a ridiculously low number (my estimate is 57").
The fat green line shows a possible slug traject clearing the windshield based on Queen Mary dipping a couple of inches due to braking. This in effect lowers the needed elevation of the AR15 to 61", ie 1" above the windshield.

Weissman used a better-quality frame and determined the linear "rifle" features in an earlier frame capture were "some grain clumping".

I dealt with all of this in my thread re "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?".  The superior 2019 copy shown by Weissman in fact supports my theory, koz we can see a rapidly swinging upwards AR15, which supports my theory that Hickey was rapidly falling backwards.  And it proves that the AR15 sitting up at 45 deg in the 2017 copy is not an artifact.
The critical thing being that we need to establish very accurately whether that frame was at Z313 (they say) or at Z315 (i said) or at Z329 (to fully support my 6-shot auto burst theory).

Marilyn Sitzman, who steadied Zapruder and would have heard the sound of the camera motor, said:

    "and just as the motorcycles ... started down the hill, he started taking
     pictures then ... There was nothing unusual until the first sound."
You get to dismiss testimony and opinion contrary to your pet theory because authorities were disingenuous.

If 99% of witness wordage is false then no theory survives without dismissing the contrary wordage.  But any such dismissing needs to be logical.  Sitzman appears to me to be one of the better witnesses.  However there were lots of witnesses that heard a very early shot.

And those "heroes" have statues with manure spreaders for pedestals.  It's your theory that's a zero.  You're a pseudo-fence-sitter. Like the "Independent" voter who actually favors one party but are just too lazy or disingenuous to give an answer. They think it makes them more "clever" and "open-minded" than the Decided.

I haven't spent much time studying the LNer versus CTer stuff (so yes i am lazy).  Hickeyians like myself are i suppose CUers, ie we believe that there was a coverup re Hickey.  In effect Oswald was a lone nutter, who fired 2 shots.  And in effect there was a conspiracy, but after the fact.
I think that i am clever, but everyone is cleverer than me at something, I think i am clever at telling  the difference tween truth & camel droppings.
But it all comes down to the Bronson footage.  I will have another look.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Hi Marjan.  This bedside interview is a great reminder of the fact that John Connally had a near death experience and may not be the best witness in the world.  Someone told me a few months ago to completely ignore everything he said because he was too confused to be reliable and Nellie Connally had groomed him into believing what she heard which was two shots in quick succession with the first hitting JFK and the second hitting Connally.
On the other hand he did mention looking back at JFK which he definitely did do in the Zapruder film by frame Z275:
However, most people think he was hit by Z225 (Connally himself studied the Z-film for the Warren Commission and said he was hit by Z230).  I feel some of his statements ring true, but others are confused (such as he said he looked over to his left at JFK, when actually he looked over to his right).

Yes Connally was one of the best witnesses. But as u say his wordage did wander a little over the weeks & years. But he in effect supports shot-1 being at the signals.
Nellie was a horrible witness. Jackie was worse.
Notice in the croft photo at Z161 that Jackie & Connally are unhappy. Why? Koz shot-1 has been at the signals at Z113, ie 2.6 sec earlier.
Re shot-2, this i say was at Z218, ie when Connally is halfway throo the Stemmons sign.  Base on him looking right then beginning to rotate left. Z218 is the only frame that shows this. Yes i know it duznt show this koz Connally is hidden at Z218, so lets put it another way, it is the only frame that duznt not show it.