Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.

[Mark Tyler]

Yes Connally was one of the best witnesses. But as u say his wordage did wander a little over the weeks & years. But he in effect supports shot-1 being at the signals.
Nellie was a horrible witness. Jackie was worse.
Notice in the croft photo at Z161 that Jackie & Connally are unhappy. Why? Koz shot-1 has been at the signals at Z113, ie 2.6 sec earlier.
Re shot-2, this i say was at Z218, ie when Connally is halfway throo the Stemmons sign.  Base on him looking right then beginning to rotate left. Z218 is the only frame that shows this. Yes i know it duznt show this koz Connally is hidden at Z218, so lets put it another way, it is the only frame that duznt not show it.

An early shot before the Zapruder film starts is an interesting idea, and well worth exploring, but I have struggled to find evidence in favour of it from the 1963/4 witness statements.  Max Holland and others did a brilliant job about ten years ago interviewing the elderly surviving witnesses, but their 50 year old memories were clearly foggy and not of forensic quality.

For example, Pierce Allman gave a very detail account of what he heard within hours of the assassination:

This is a very useful statement as he was so close to the TSBD, and he saw JFK duck after the first shot (as we see in the Z-film after Z225).  Sadly the ravages of time have taken their toll on Allman's memory and he has started substituting other peoples accounts, and what the Z-film shows, into his own recollections:

He is not alone, and other witnesses are just as bad (e.g. Jean Hill).  The moral of the tale is to use early detailed witness statements if there are any, and ignore any contradictory statements made many years later.

In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180.  Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point.  Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot.

A shot fired at Z218 for the so called single bullet theory does have a fair amount of supporting evidence, such as the jiggle in the Z-film at Z227-Z235, which is perfectly consistent with a 9 frame delayed reaction (which closely mirrors the 8 frame delay after the Z310 shot which massively affected the Z-film at Z318 and later).  With the victims reacting just after frame Z224, this again is a close match to Z218 as it would take 3-4 frames or longer for the victims to react (humans don't react instantly to things like this, so 100-200 ms reaction time is normal for the human nervous system to react).

The HSCA said the single bullet theory shot was around Z190 (based on the jiggle analysis and the dictabelt), but this requires a 2 second delayed reaction, which I think is slightly implausible (although not impossible).  A missed shot at Z190 and the SBT at Z220 is also consistent with what John Connally said regarding a 2 second delay between the first and second shots (2:30 into the video):

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

An early shot before the Zapruder film starts is an interesting idea, and well worth exploring, but I have struggled to find evidence in favour of it from the 1963/4 witness statements.  Max Holland and others did a brilliant job about ten years ago interviewing the elderly surviving witnesses, but their 50 year old memories were clearly foggy and not of forensic quality.

For example, Pierce Allman gave a very detail account of what he heard within hours of the assassination:

This is a very useful statement as he was so close to the TSBD, and he saw JFK duck after the first shot (as we see in the Z-film after Z225).  Sadly the ravages of time have taken their toll on Allman's memory and he has started substituting other peoples accounts, and what the Z-film shows, into his own recollections:

He is not alone, and other witnesses are just as bad (e.g. Jean Hill).  The moral of the tale is to use early detailed witness statements if there are any, and ignore any contradictory statements made many years later.

In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180.  Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point.  Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot.

A shot fired at Z218 for the so called single bullet theory does have a fair amount of supporting evidence, such as the jiggle in the Z-film at Z227-Z235, which is perfectly consistent with a 9 frame delayed reaction (which closely mirrors the 8 frame delay after the Z310 shot which massively affected the Z-film at Z318 and later).  With the victims reacting just after frame Z224, this again is a close match to Z218 as it would take 3-4 frames or longer for the victims to react (humans don't react instantly to things like this, so 100-200 ms reaction time is normal for the human nervous system to react).

The HSCA said the single bullet theory shot was around Z190 (based on the jiggle analysis and the dictabelt), but this requires a 2 second delayed reaction, which I think is slightly implausible (although not impossible).  A missed shot at Z190 and the SBT at Z220 is also consistent with what John Connally said regarding a 2 second delay between the first and second shots (2:30 into the video):

I dont remember Pierce Allman. One thing, he says they turned the corner & boom.  Which supports a shot at the signals.
Many witnesses mention an early shot. Moore is the best.  Whatley is good.
If u search Roselle u will find his report on reactions which indicate a shot at the signals.
https://www.acsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Estimating-Occult-Timing-of-Surprise-Gunshot-Sounds-in-Silent-Film-via-Observed-Start-of-Human-Voluntary-Reactions-of-Concern-Roselle.pdf
The hole in the floor of the limo is a good witness.

Connally is a very good witness.  He never saw JFK or JFK's reaction at any time i think.
Connally heard 2 shots i think, ie both of Oswald's 2 shots. I think he missed hearing Hickey's shots.
Strangely in 1966 he is talking about there being 2 seconds tween shots, when in 1963 he mentions a span of 5 seconds & then another 5 seconds ie 10 or 11 seconds in all, which duznt jell with his statement that he heard only 2 shots.
So many contradictions it makes my brain hurt.

Yes, i explained the reaction times for shot-2 in my thread Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2861.0.html

[Mark Tyler]

I dont remember Pierce Allman. One thing, he says they turned the corner & boom.  Which supports a shot at the signals.
Many witnesses mention an early shot. Moore is the best.  Whatley is good.
If u search Weissman u will find his report on reactions which indicate a shot at the signals.
The hole in the floor of the limo is a good witness.

https://topekatornado.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/the-Bronson-Kennedy-assasination-film-investigation-Report.v2.1.pdf
An interesting report by kenneth s weissman -- "report: the bronson kennedy assassination film investigation" -- which says that Robin Unger's 2017 frames of Bronson's film (ie the ones i am using) are not as good as the 2019 frames.

Connally is a very good witness.  He never saw JFK or JFK's reaction at any time i think.
Connally heard 2 shots i think, ie both of Oswald's 2 shots. I think he missed hearing Hickey's shots.
Strangely in 1966 he is talking about there being 2 seconds tween shots, when in 1963 he mentions a span of 5 seconds & then another 5 seconds ie 10 or 11 seconds in all, which duznt jell with his statement that he heard only 2 shots.
So many contradictions it makes my brain hurt.

Yes, i explained the reaction times for shot-2 in my thread Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2861.0.html

You mentioned a witness named "Whatley", but I'm not familiar with this person.  Could you link the source for who this witness was and what they said?

In his statement from January 1964, TE Moore said that JFK had reached the Thornton freeway sign when the first shot was fired.  The general timing of this would have been around Z180-Z200 and can be referenced by the Betzner photo which shows the limo position at Z186 relative to the Thornton freeway sign:



Moore is one of many witnesses connecting the first shot with the Z180-Z200 timeframe, which directly challenges all theories which have a shot fired before Z170 and confirms that the Zapruder film jiggle Z190-Z210 is a result of Zapruder being startled by the first shot.

One very important point about John Connally's statement is that he said he heard a shot fired 2 second before he was hit, but he never heard the shot that hit him.  In other words the only shots he heard were the shots fired around Z185, and Z310.  This may mean that the 2 second delay was a body shock of some kind and there wasn't a shot fired at Z218 (as the HSCA suggested), or it means there were shots at Z185 and Z218 but he failed to hear the Z218 shot as he was distracted by the pain of the injury.

Sadly this dilemma cannot be resolved by Connally's statement alone, and the other witnesses are split somewhat: most say there was only one shot before JFK raised his arms, but enough mentioned two shots in quick succession so it should be seriously considered as a possibility.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

You mentioned a witness named "Whatley", but I'm not familiar with this person.  Could you link the source for who this witness was and what they said?

I quote Whatley in my Reply#27. I found his words in another forum, i forget which. But i remember that there was no followup discussion worth mentioning. Whatley is still alive & active on forums today i think.

In his statement from January 1964, TE Moore said that JFK had reached the Thornton freeway sign when the first shot was fired.  The general timing of this would have been around Z180-Z200 and can be referenced by the Betzner photo which shows the limo position at Z186 relative to the Thornton freeway sign:
Moore is one of many witnesses connecting the first shot with the Z180-Z200 timeframe, which directly challenges all theories which have a shot fired before Z170 and confirms that the Zapruder film jiggle Z190-Z210 is a result of Zapruder being startled by the first shot.

Moore did not mention the Thornton sign, as explained in my Reply#23 31 33 34 35 38.

One very important point about John Connally's statement is that he said he heard a shot fired 2 second before he was hit, but he never heard the shot that hit him.  In other words the only shots he heard were the shots fired around Z185, and Z310.  This may mean that the 2 second delay was a body shock of some kind and there wasn't a shot fired at Z218 (as the HSCA suggested), or it means there were shots at Z185 and Z218 but he failed to hear the Z218 shot as he was distracted by the pain of the injury.

Sadly this dilemma cannot be resolved by Connally's statement alone, and the other witnesses are split somewhat: most say there was only one shot before JFK raised his arms, but enough mentioned two shots in quick succession so it should be seriously considered as a possibility.

There was mention of JFK raising his arms re shot-1 & also re shot-2. U can see JFK with a raised right arm in the Towner footage, ie at the signals, which i have shown in Reply#12.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Here is a copy of some of the wordage from the forum that i cant find.

.....................closer than him said they heard 3 shots and they are damn sure of it
Randy Harris 1 year ago
Vern Pascal let's say it's TRUE he was right under the window what the hell does that prove absolutely nothing the first shot missed the second shot that hit Kennedy and went through connally was at 59 yards head shot 88 yards so people had a better vantage point than him if what he is saying is true and I have no reason to believe him
dpitd 1 year ago
And??
1 Michael Barnhart 4 years ago
He did hear 4 sounds - the first two gunshots, then the simultaneous sound of a rifle shot with the sound of the bullet exploding the hard surface of Kennedy's skull. Those who were close enough have all related that - that explains the "boom-boom" effect that they heard on that 3rd shot. People who were farther away heard 3 shots but not the sound of the skull explosion.
Eduardo Flores 3 years ago
Michael Barnhart nope Mr Holland heard  four shots.
Vern Pascal 3 years ago
Worell was damn near under the window. Holland and other RR Workers were on the horizontal on the Triple Underpass, so let's not hear any nonsense about echoes.
Howard Whatley 3 years ago (edited)
i was there sir and heard 4 to 6 shots i was  about 25 ft. east of tsbd. you could tell the difference 1 shot was low kinda muffled
came just as the limo got straight on elm i'm sure it missed
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
that's right,and the two were different sounds the first of the two wasn't quite as loud the second sounded lower in tone but louder.iv'e filled many deer and hogs ,and the sound of a bullet hitting a skull or anything else does not make a sound similar to the actual discharge of a rifle,sometimes a popping sound is conman
Dallas Brubaker 3 years ago (edited)
Howard Whatley, You were in Dealey Plaza on 11-22-1963 at 12"30 pm cst?
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
right strictly by chance,i didn't even know he was coming until the told us at the courthouse.went there to get manage licence.never spoke much about it.went back to camp Pendleton sunday came back home in jan. 1964. my  wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005.there's a couple things i never heard anyone mention what i saw and heard some of the witness' have said and some the complete opposite.will say without any doubt there were more than three shots and the last came so close together no way did they come from a bolt action rifle.
Vern Pascal 2 years ago
That's interesting Howard-more witnesses heard shots from the knol/underpass than the TSBD.
Eduardo Flores 2 years ago
No he didn't..!
Rob Rob 2 months ago
 @Howard Whatley  Was there a fear factor in Dallas that witnesses that did not align with the 3 shot line shooter explanation were in danger?

[Mark Tyler]

Here is a copy of some of the wordage from the forum that i cant find.

.....................closer than him said they heard 3 shots and they are damn sure of it
Randy Harris 1 year ago
Vern Pascal let's say it's TRUE he was right under the window what the hell does that prove absolutely nothing the first shot missed the second shot that hit Kennedy and went through connally was at 59 yards head shot 88 yards so people had a better vantage point than him if what he is saying is true and I have no reason to believe him
dpitd 1 year ago
And??
1 Michael Barnhart 4 years ago
He did hear 4 sounds - the first two gunshots, then the simultaneous sound of a rifle shot with the sound of the bullet exploding the hard surface of Kennedy's skull. Those who were close enough have all related that - that explains the "boom-boom" effect that they heard on that 3rd shot. People who were farther away heard 3 shots but not the sound of the skull explosion.
Eduardo Flores 3 years ago
Michael Barnhart nope Mr Holland heard  four shots.
Vern Pascal 3 years ago
Worell was damn near under the window. Holland and other RR Workers were on the horizontal on the Triple Underpass, so let's not hear any nonsense about echoes.
Howard Whatley 3 years ago (edited)
i was there sir and heard 4 to 6 shots i was  about 25 ft. east of tsbd. you could tell the difference 1 shot was low kinda muffled
came just as the limo got straight on elm i'm sure it missed
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
that's right,and the two were different sounds the first of the two wasn't quite as loud the second sounded lower in tone but louder.iv'e filled many deer and hogs ,and the sound of a bullet hitting a skull or anything else does not make a sound similar to the actual discharge of a rifle,sometimes a popping sound is conman
Dallas Brubaker 3 years ago (edited)
Howard Whatley, You were in Dealey Plaza on 11-22-1963 at 12"30 pm cst?
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
right strictly by chance,i didn't even know he was coming until the told us at the courthouse.went there to get manage licence.never spoke much about it.went back to camp Pendleton sunday came back home in jan. 1964. my  wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005.there's a couple things i never heard anyone mention what i saw and heard some of the witness' have said and some the complete opposite.will say without any doubt there were more than three shots and the last came so close together no way did they come from a bolt action rifle.
Vern Pascal 2 years ago
That's interesting Howard-more witnesses heard shots from the knol/underpass than the TSBD.
Eduardo Flores 2 years ago
No he didn't..!
Rob Rob 2 months ago
 @Howard Whatley  Was there a fear factor in Dallas that witnesses that did not align with the 3 shot line shooter explanation were in danger?

Thanks for passing this info on, I've never seen it before.  This is very interesting, but sadly the line "my  wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005" makes me very suspicious.  This case has attracted a lot of attention from people who have claimed to have been in Dealey Plaza, but who didn't come forward at the time.  If Whatley can provide stronger proof of his presence there that day I would be prepared to accept what he says (e.g. dated letters or diaries perhaps).  However, until then he is just another guy on the internet.  For all I know he could be an adolescent troublemaker who is trolling us all for a bit of a laugh!

Lastly, even if Whatley was a witness in 1963, because he didn't put anything on the record at that time, any statements 40+ years later cannot be assumed to be what he thought at the time.  As I have shown in this thread, people like Pierce Allman helpfully demonstrate that human memory is unreliable when it comes to recalling events from decades before (especially with social pressure encouraging people to believe a particular scenario).

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

I spent a half of yesterday looking for the youtube footage that Howard Whatley commented on, but i couldn’t find it. But i did find some other comments of his. I think he is telling the truth, ie his truth. He might be a CTer, not a LNer, & is religious.
He is on facebook if anyone wants to contact him.
Buell Frazier is on facebook.
Tina Towner Pender is on facebook.  I spent an  hour or two looking for the youtube of her saying that the first shot was just after or just before she stopped filming. Shot-1 was as i said at frame T141 (in her ear)(at T137 from the Carcano's muzzle's point of view), & she stopped filming at T142. The youtube was of her standing on the corner talking, at one of the 50th anniversaries or some such thing, i might find it one day.

It looks like Anne Beck was there too, on Fr 22Nov 1963. [edit aug2021][i found anne on facebook -- she told me she wasnt in dealey plaza -- her comments were based on the acoustic evidence]
She heard in effect an auto burst of 5 shots. Which accords with my own theory that Hickey fired an auto burst of praps 6 shots.
But how could anyone "hear" that there were 5 auto shots, its difficult to hear the difference tween 3 & 6.
She must have been close to Hickey at the time, up near the TSBD it would sound like one long funny shot with echoes.

Howard Whatley 3 years ago (edited)
on this day 54 years ago i found myself in Dealey plaza saw and heard some things i can't forget.in the day,weeks,and years to come i lost any faith i had in L.E.,FBI,CIA.government and all media.worst of all seeing the media help cover the truth up.the home movie films have been altered,there was a lot more than three shots fired  four for sure 95% sure on five and 75% sue on six. nobody and i mean nobody looked at the TSBDB a cop ran up the hill with his gun in hand and everyone followed except the ones that hit the deck or stood still.if all these people were willing to tell lie upon lie, what won't they do?.they could've been this way all along,but i wasn't aware of it until then.GOD bless Jim Garrison and those like him including you Rick that were not afraid to speak out.wake up America

Big Foot Bill Unknown 3 years ago
Howard Whatley: Millions of people, especially children were adversely affected by JFK's murder. School teachers turned on TVs in classrooms all across the country. Walter Cronkite, was on every channel giving live updates as the horror unfolded. The entire country and even the world watched in utter disbelief.
It was so odd and surrealistic, to see adults openly crying, holding one another for support and praying. As days, weeks, and years passed the "rabbit hole" only got deeper.
Our innocence was stolen and a society of cynics were born. All and all, Biblical Prophecies were unfolding and it was scary.
One more confirmation of the soon return, of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
RICK THORNE 3 years ago
I BELIEVE AMERICA IS GOING TO FALL IN THE NEAR FUTURE BECAUSE OF HER WICKED SINS AGAINST HUMANITY NOT LONG FROM NOW...THAK YOU FOR THE KIND WORDS...
Charles Walter 3 years ago
Howard, can you elaborate on what you witnessed, I won't say you are making something up about what you heard or saw at the plaza but I find it hard to understand a live witness saying the hit happened  near the plaza when the footage proves he was hit over a mile away before the limo raced down that route to get to the hospital. Please share what you witnessed...
GREGORY RUSSO 3 years ago
Mr. Whatley, thank you for your story. I believe every word you wrote! JFK was killed like an animal in the street, and it was a military style ambush! The fact that no one spoke up is understandable, they were killing all the witnesses. Only GOD knows the truth, and most of the wicked murderers have already faced the LORD and are now in HELL FOREVER. JFK is with our LORD & savior Jesus Christ. So is RFK & JFK jr... Evil is everywhere.

Howard Whatley 3 years ago
thank you for the reply it's sad that nation has come to this where money seems to rule.GOD bless you and yours.

Clocktower Preacher 3 years ago
GREGORY RUSSO  JFK, JFK Jr & RFK only in Heaven if they died in a State of Grace .... not Otherwise Acts 16:31 Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved ... see also Acts 4:12 Ephesians 2:8&9 Clearly the consumation of all things as we know them is at hand God Bless
DyslexiCBeanie 3 years ago
Thank you for this reply. It's weird watching witnesses in these videos. They couldn't have all been innocent bystanders.

Howard Whatley 3 years ago
funny you said that,there was a couple of policemen that really seemed weird to me one had a long rain/overcoat on and it had warmed up.he never took one of his hands out of the through pocket.the other didn't seem interested in looking for anything just kept walking around.if you look in the news films you can probably find them.and what i thought to be a mailman had a large leather pouch slung on his shoulder.

AnneBeck58 2 years ago
I am certain I heard seven shots;  bam.. bam.   bam., bambam bambam.  Seven. There are two groups of shots split-second (not even a second) apart.  Seems the last five shots came in less than three seconds, all together.  The first two were maybe a second apart, even two, between.. then two seconds before the five more shots. Is that what you heard?
AnneBeck58 1 year ago
 @johnny cash   You have never listened to the dictabelt, I suppose?  Fool.
AnneBeck58 1 year ago
 @johnny cash   Popping off while ignoring the stated obvious would make one a fool.
Don't bother researching on your own.  Go along with what others tell you, as that is yet another mark of foolishness.
AnneBeck58 1 year ago
 @johnny cash    Really?  I don't think so.   I spent the time on it. You people did not.  You expect others to do the work for you so you can be nodding your heads like you know something.  phfft.  whatever

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Patrolman Hargis was left of JFK & Co, Hargis says ……………turning left on Elm St & about 2 or 3 m down Elm St the first shot rang out……