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Author Topic: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.  (Read 44567 times)

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2021, 11:26:57 PM »
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According to the medical evidence, the bullet struck the fifth rib in the back near the scapula (shoulder blade) and just medial to the right axilla (armpit) fold (Shaw 6H85).  There was a fracture of the fifth rib 4 cm to the right of the spine.  This was noticed by Dr. Shaw afterward from the xrays and is mentioned in his HSCA testimony (1HSCA261).  This fracture was caused by the bullet causing the rib to flex as there was nothing that struck JBC near the spine.  In order to cause the rib to move, the bullet must apply force to the rib for a bit of time.  This is not the result of the bullet passing through the rib but of striking it where it entered and following along the rib until it broke through the bone. Once it broke through the bone, the flexing force on the upper rib ended.

You learn something new everyday in this case. I must pay closer attention to the medical description of this rib break. I read recently that some think pieces of rib exited under connallys nipple and this is why his lapel bulges at z224. This made me think the bullet passed through his chest and burst out his front breaking the rib on the front of his chest as the bullet exited.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 11:28:02 PM by Gerry Down »

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2021, 11:26:57 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2021, 02:36:14 AM »
Wrong. It would go through Kennedy first no matter how much I moved Connally.
Have a look at Altgens photo taken at z256.  You can see that JBC is in the middle of his seat and is not fully turned.  His right shoulder is on a line to the right side of JFK back to the SN.  Look at z256:

and z261:

and explain to me how JBC's right armpit is to the left side of JFK on a shot from the SN.

It is rather obvious that you are not taking an impartial view of the photographic evidence.

Not only is JBC in the middle of his seat at z271 and that his right armpit is well right of the middle of the seat, but you are maintaining that JFK has hardly moved left at all. you have his right elbow still on the car.

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One of the insets shows the over-head view. And Kennedy is to his left pretty far. You see, the Zapruder film defines where he is placed.
We can see in z261 that Jacqueline Kennedy is holding his left elbow and his left hand is up near his neck.  So his left elbow is close to the middle of the car. Work out where his midline is from that.  It is pretty clear that JFK is left of JBC in both Altgens and the zfilm.

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Compare the level of the exit opening to the amount of shirt and necktie knot visible in Z272.
The bullet struck the back of the wrist at the end of the jacket cuff, which is located within the yellow square here:


That is at least 6 inches below his tie knot.  How far below your tie knot is your right nipple?

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2021, 02:43:02 AM »
You learn something new everyday in this case. I must pay closer attention to the medical description of this rib break. I read recently that some think pieces of rib exited under connallys nipple and this is why his lapel bulges at z224. This made me think the bullet passed through his chest and burst out his front breaking the rib on the front of his chest as the bullet exited.
The bullet basically went around the chest cavity and did not penetrate the pleura (the lining of the chest cavity around the lungs.  The bullet did not pass through the lung.  Rather it drove shards of bone inward and down through the pleura and into the lower lobe of the lung.  The only way that can happen is by impacting the outer surface of the rib and then driving through the rib from the outer surface sending bone pieces inward.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 02:44:01 AM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2021, 02:43:02 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2021, 02:45:49 AM »
Also note that in z271 - 275, when the bullet is supposedly exiting JBC's chest and smashing his wrist apart, that his hand doesn't appear to move a fraction of an inch.

Irrefutable video evidence that the bullet does not exit JBC's chest at this moment.

Can't believe this nonsense is still being peddled.

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2021, 02:49:46 AM »
The bullet basically went around the chest cavity and did not penetrate the pleura (the lining of the chest cavity around the lungs.  The bullet did not pass through the lung.  Rather it drove shards of bone inward and down through the pleura and into the lower lobe of the lung.  The only way that can happen is by impacting the outer surface of the rib and then driving through the rib from the outer surface sending bone pieces inward.

I see. So the bullet did not go through the lung. Kinda confusing when people say Connolly's lung collapsed and this is why he puffs his cheeks trying to get air. I guess he could be puffing his cheeks from the pain.

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2021, 02:49:46 AM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2021, 03:14:01 PM »
I see. So the bullet did not go through the lung. Kinda confusing when people say Connolly's lung collapsed and this is why h1e puffs his cheeks trying to get air. I guess he could be puffing his cheeks from the pain.
Connally's lung likely did not collapse until he got out of the car at Parkland. He said he felt no pain until then. The only missile that penetrated the pleura and lung was rib bone shards driven down into the lower lobe of the right lung. Connally kept his right wrist pressed against his chest and Dr. Shaw said that this likely allowed him to breathe en route to Parkland.

There is good evidence that JBC is saying "Oh, no, no" when he puffs out his cheeks from z242-250. . Lip readers have agreed that he is saying that there. Also Jackie turns to look at him at that point. She said that this is what drew her attention.  There is no other place where this occurs. Nellie said that JBC uttered this before the second shot. JBC was not sure.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 03:14:49 PM by Andrew Mason »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2021, 07:00:33 PM »
Of course you can make it seem that Connally "is not fully turned" if you manipulate the pictures.
I am talking about JBC's chest.  In case you have not noticed this about the human torso, it twists so that the shoulders turn farther than the upper chest, which turns farther than the abdomen which turns farther than the hips, which are likely facing forward and have not moved. 

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You have no understanding of parallax and perspective.
Ok.  Then explain to me how you determine that JFK is NOT left of JBC here:



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I don't think so. I think Kennedy and Connally's heads are in a line, and that both are inboard relative to Kellerman. By Z272, Connally's head was a little more inboard than Kennedy's.
Oh, right, just like this photo taken about 30 seconds before the first shot shows that they are not in a line with Kellerman:


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For adult males, about eight inches from the sternal notch to the nipple. This is within 1/2" of the measurement on my model.
I just measured the vertical distance from the top of my tie knot to just below my right nipple:  7.25 inches.   Keep in mind that the garments move relative to the body. Even the skin and subcutaneous tissue can move relative to the ribs.  You can see this happening when the torso twists.  The turn with his right arm jammed between the chest and the seat-back could easily have caused shifts of the clothing.  It would indeed be remarkable that the two wounds - the chest exit and the wrist entrance - are virtually touching at z271 if the injuries took place when they were 12 inches apart (let alone not aligned with the SN or the thigh wound).

Offline Mark Tyler

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2021, 07:38:45 PM »
Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots and definitely recalled the last shot striking JFK in the head.  He said that the second shot did not appear to hit JFK.  It appeared to miss.  All he saw was the hair on the right of JFK's head fly up at the time the second shot sounded.  Guess where that occurs?

Brehm does not necessarily describe the headshot as the second shot.  He said that JFK's hair flew up on the second shot.  That is what Hickey saw as well on the second shot. Brehm was never questioned by the WC. It is difficult to determine what he saw.  Hudson gave two statements shortly after the events (November 22 and 25, 1963) and gave a very different statement in his testimony in July 1964.  If you go by his first two statements as being the more accurate, he says that JFK slumped on the first shot and the last two shots were in rapid succession.  He does not say which of the shots hit the President in the head. He does not even mention a shot hitting the President in the head.
It was not a matter of not hearing a shot after the head shot.  It is a matter of hearing and/or seeing the head shot as the third of the three shots.  The Connallys, Greer, Hickey, Powers, Bennett, and McIntyre all recalled the head shot as the third shot.  Hill recalled it as the last of two shots that he recalled but believes, based on what other agents said, that there was a second shot while he was running beside the left front of the QM.

The statement I use for Brehm was given on 24th November, which I read as meaning the second shot was the head shot with short gaps between the shots of a few seconds or more:

When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded. According to BREHM, the President seemed do to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.


22H837
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0434a.htm

He explained this shot sequence very clearly in 1986 with the aid of a map:

As for Emmett Hudson, his early statements are lacking in detail, but by explaining more in 1964 I would say that we can use that as his clearest view of the events.  I don't think anything he said later contradicts the early statements, he merely gives more information.

Yes I agree with you, several witnesses do regard the head shot as the third, which contrasts with the others who said the head shot was the second shot.  Although superficially the Dealey Plaza witnesses seem to contradict each other on this point, I think it is possible to make sense of their testimony in terms of each of them only hearing a part of the gunshot sequence.  Some witnesses missed the first shot, some missed the last, and others heard double bangs instead of a single shot (especially near the head shot).  Overall they cluster around three clear bursts of gunfire relative to the Zapruder film:
  • Z190-Z230
  • Z313
  • Z360-Z400

This pattern also matches those who reported three separate shots, and also those who said the last two shots were closer than the first two.  It seems to be a rather neat way to explain the otherwise incongruous witness statements.  The only remaining issue to untangle is whether a single shot was fired in each burst, or whether a pair of shots was ever fired (i.e. two gunmen versus echoes from a single shot).

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2021, 07:38:45 PM »