Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.

[Andrew Mason]

Since your medical illustration shows the shoulders at rest, a "shoulder-line" match to the photo should match with how Connally's shoulders are at rest.


The right left shoulder is artificially high and the camera angle is oblique. The best you can do is match the sternum level. The sternum is approximately on the frontal plane of the upper chest, which we can see in the Zapruder film

Come on, Jerry. Anyone can see that you are not even close. As far as the sternum not moving, what are you basing that on? As far as I can tell, the whole rib cage, including the sternum is pretty flexible.  Put your hand on your sternum when you twist.

As far as the left shoulder is concerned, I agree that it is not at the same level as the right, but that is because he has dropped the right.  Besides, the point where the shoulder connects to the neck does not change 

All you are demonstrating is that the alignment of the right nipple and wrist wounds is certainly within the range of positions that are consistent with the zfilm.  I am pretty sure I could convince a panel of independent medical experts.

[Dan O'meara]

But nothing wrong with you using a medical illustration of a person not twisted and who's standing upright.



    "Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
          — "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)

How long is this going to go on?

"How long is this going to go on?"

The physical and video evidence demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt that Andrew's theory of a shot passing through JBC around z271 is nonsense. It has been clearly demonstrated but he simply refuses to accept it.
If that is indeed his suggestion for the exit of the bullet labeled in your graphic it simply defies belief. It makes a mockery of common sense. To make matters worse JBC's right shoulder is noticeably lower in the Zfilm than the image of him standing making the bullet hole in the jacket even lower!!

And even if the bullet did exit where Andrew suggests, it exits on a downward trajectory and would never be able to cause the tears in the cuff of JBC's shirt.
The fact of the matter is that the bullet exits JBC's chest a lot lower and is in accord with this quote you posted:

  "Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
          — "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)

This leaves the problem of the missing bullet as it has clearly been demonstrated there was no shot that hit any of the occupants of the limo around z271

[Andrew Mason]

"How long is this going to go on?"

The physical and video evidence demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt that Andrew's theory of a shot passing through JBC around z271 is nonsense. It has been clearly demonstrated but he simply refuses to accept it.
If that is indeed his suggestion for the exit of the bullet labeled in your graphic it simply defies belief. It makes a mockery of common sense. To make matters worse JBC's right shoulder is noticeably lower in the Zfilm than the image of him standing making the bullet hole in the jacket even lower!!

You are assuming the distance from the top of the shoulder to the wound location is the same in z268 as it is in a normal standing position.  It is not.  It is longer.  The shoulders turn more than the ribs.  You have to duplicate what JBC is doing to see that his right shoulder is turned farther right than his fifth rib.  Using your left hand and facing forward, put your fifth finger on the fifth rib just below your right nipple and your thumb on your right shoulder.  Now turn your shoulder sharply right keeping your hips facing forward keeping your fifth finger below the right nipple.  Your thumb ends up 3-4 inches from the shoulder.

[/i]
And even if the bullet did exit where Andrew suggests, it exits on a downward trajectory and would never be able to cause the tears in the cuff of JBC's shirt.

You obviously have missed the point that the bullet made two holes in the cuff: this one where it entered after exiting the chest:


The bullet then struck the radius and fragmented. The fragments deflected up off the back of the radius and exited back through the french cuff here:

The fact of the matter is that the bullet exits JBC's chest a lot lower and is in accord with this quote you posted:

  "Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
          — "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)

You can see Connally's torn-open right chest? 
 

This leaves the problem of the missing bullet as it has clearly been demonstrated there was no shot that hit any of the occupants of the limo around z271

So are you agreeing that there was a bullet around z271?  If not, how do you explain the overwhelming number of people who specifically recalled the last two shots being close together - closer than the first two?

[Dan O'meara]

You are assuming the distance from the top of the shoulder to the wound location is the same in z268 as it is in a normal standing position.  It is not.  It is longer.  The shoulders turn more than the ribs.  You have to duplicate what JBC is doing to see that his right shoulder is turned farther right than his fifth rib.  Using your left hand and facing forward, put your fifth finger on the fifth rib just below your right nipple and your thumb on your right shoulder.  Now turn your shoulder sharply right keeping your hips facing forward keeping your fifth finger below the right nipple.  Your thumb ends up 3-4 inches from the shoulder.

Your usual nonsense, trying to obfuscate the issue.
Jerry's graphic, based on the exit hole in JBC's jacket, has the bullet exiting his chest close to where his elbow is pressed against his chest. Nowhere near his wrist. You have simply chosen a point based on his wrist position and are making up any old guff to try and justify it.
It is clear for anyone to see that the exit point is far lower than you are trying to convince yourself it is. It is equally clear there is no point discussing this with you as you are beyond reason.

You obviously have missed the point that the bullet made two holes in the cuff: this one where it entered after exiting the chest:


The bullet then struck the radius and fragmented. The fragments deflected up off the back of the radius and exited back through the french cuff here:

Once again you demonstrate your ability to contradict yourself to make a point.
The Z-Film shows no movement of the wrist in the frames around z271. It is clear evidence that JBC's wrist is not struck by a bullet at this point. You try to wave this irrefutable evidence away by claiming it was a "glancing strike":

"Besides, his right arm appears to be pinned against the chest, probably because he is pressing his arm into the seatback.  Also the bullet made a glancing strike to the back of the wrist."

Now we have you arguing that the bullet fragmented on contacted with his wrist, with some fragments deflecting "up off the back of the radius".
How is this a "glancing strike"?
The energy taken to fragment the bullet must be transferred to the object it is striking - JBC's radius.
This energy must then be transferred into some kind of movement of his hand but that's not what we see in the Z-Film.
The radius is shattered and fragments of bullet are lodged in his wrist.
How is this a "glancing strike"?

 So are you agreeing that there was a bullet around z271?  If not, how do you explain the overwhelming number of people who specifically recalled the last two shots being close together - closer than the first two?

We agree one the number of shots and the pattern.
As there is no strike at z271 then two possibilities exist (IMO)
1) The second shot missed and the third was the headshot.
2) The third shot missed and the second shot was the headshot.

The evidence of the Z-Film far outweighs the unreliable witness statements of those recounting a traumatic event (whether you like it or not).
Zero evidence of a strike around z271 is present in the Z-Film, so we are left with one of the two possibilities outlined.

[Andrew Mason]

We agree one the number of shots and the pattern.
As there is no strike at z271 then two possibilities exist (IMO)
1) The second shot missed and the third was the headshot.
2) The third shot missed and the second shot was the headshot.

The evidence of the Z-Film far outweighs the unreliable witness statements of those recounting a traumatic event (whether you like it or not).
Zero evidence of a strike around z271 is present in the Z-Film, so we are left with one of the two possibilities outlined.

Well, there is pretty good evidence that the third shot was the last shot.  The Connallys, all the Secret Service agents, Altgens, the Newman's, Mary Woodward etc.  So it is not like there is no evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.

As far as the evidence of it hitting JBC we have the Connallys and George Hickey and Greer. Hickey's evidence is pretty useful because we can actually see the hair lift as he described it.  That allows us to pinpoint when it struck. How does a bullet lift JFK's hair and not hit in the car?

[Dan O'meara]

Well, there is pretty good evidence that the third shot was the last shot.  The Connallys, all the Secret Service agents, Altgens, the Newman's, Mary Woodward etc.  So it is not like there is no evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.

As far as the evidence of it hitting JBC we have the Connallys and George Hickey and Greer. Hickey's evidence is pretty useful because we can actually see the hair lift as he described it.  That allows us to pinpoint when it struck. How does a bullet lift JFK's hair and not hit in the car?

"...we can actually see the hair lift as he described it."

   And here it is....the famous Hickey fringe ruffle.
You've been schooled elsewhere on this nonsense ("The First Shot" thread) so I won't be indulging you.
All I'm saying is that the evidence is conclusive - Connally was not shot through the torso around z271.
This leaves us with the options - a missed second shot or a missed third shot. I too can cherry-pick witness statements, anyone can, some that support a missed second shot and some that support a missed third shot.
The point to remember is this - the only reason you support the headshot as the third shot is to fit in with your Connally strike around z271.
The Connally strike around Z271 has been completely debunked so you don't have to be tied to the headshot = shot 3 scenario anymore.
You are free to explore other options

[Andrew Mason]

"...we can actually see the hair lift as he described it."

   And here it is....the famous Hickey fringe ruffle.
You've been schooled elsewhere on this nonsense ("The First Shot" thread) so I won't be indulging you.
All I'm saying is that the evidence is conclusive - Connally was not shot through the torso around z271.
This leaves us with the options - a missed second shot or a missed third shot. I too can cherry-pick witness statements, anyone can, some that support a missed second shot and some that support a missed third shot.
The point to remember is this - the only reason you support the headshot as the third shot is to fit in with your Connally strike around z271.
The Connally strike around Z271 has been completely debunked so you don't have to be tied to the headshot = shot 3 scenario anymore.
You are free to explore other options

Yes. I am free to explore other options.  But the only option you present is to reject the abundant and clear evidence from dozens of witnesses, that the head shot was the last shot.  You say that there was a shot when Clint Hill climbed onto the back of the car at about z360 or so.  Clint Hill denied that.  You suggest that he did not notice, along with everyone else in the car.  You say that Oswald missed the entire car after hitting the bulls-eye 2.5 seconds earlier.  For some unknown reason, you can be sure that Oswald made a drastic repositioning of the rifle for his last shot.  For some unknown reason you think that Oswald was unaware that he had killed JFK on the head shot - he thought he had missed so he took another shot that really missed the entire car!

The fact is that there was nothing to aim at at z360!!!  There would be absolutely no reason for Oswald to fire at z360!!   And you accuse me of not wanting to explore other options!!!  Here is an option I would suggest: Just follow the evidence.....

[Dan O'meara]

Yes. I am free to explore other options.  But the only option you present is to reject the abundant and clear evidence from dozens of witnesses, that the head shot was the last shot.  You say that there was a shot when Clint Hill climbed onto the back of the car at about z360 or so.  Clint Hill denied that.  You suggest that he did not notice, along with everyone else in the car.  You say that Oswald missed the entire car after hitting the bulls-eye 2.5 seconds earlier.  For some unknown reason, you can be sure that Oswald made a drastic repositioning of the rifle for his last shot.  For some unknown reason you think that Oswald was unaware that he had killed JFK on the head shot - he thought he had missed so he took another shot that really missed the entire car!

The fact is that there was nothing to aim at at z360!!!  There would be absolutely no reason for Oswald to fire at z360!!   And you accuse me of not wanting to explore other options!!!  Here is an option I would suggest: Just follow the evidence.....

To make my position clear Andrew:
I don't think there is anything definitive to support a second shot miss or a third shot miss and that's that.
Anything said about Hill was presented as pure speculation whilst exploring the pros and cons of a third shot miss.
Nowhere have I stated a firm opinion on this matter as I don't believe there is evidence definitive enough to determine it one way or the other.
The only reason I favour a third shot miss is because the last two shots are so close together and it's my opinion that the more likely of these last two shots to miss would be shot 3.
Shot 1 was a hit.
It makes sense to me that, after a pause to take aim, shot 2 would be a hit.
I get the impression the shooter took his time over shot 2 but really hurried shot 3. We know it was hurried because of the many reports that shot 3 followed extremely closely after shot 2.
Other than that 'hunch' I don't have much else. As you know, it's a piece of cake to get witness statements to support almost any scenario going and there is indeed solid witness evidence that shot 3 missed but I don't put the same stock in witness statements that you do.

A shot 2 miss with a headshot at shot 3 is still a total possibility, it just seems weird to miss the shot you've taken your time on and hit with the shot you've rushed.
I have always stated the limitations of the "First Shot" model I've presented and have never shied away from solid evidence or arguments regarding the shots taken that day. The assassin must surely have seen JFK's head explode and knew there was no need for another shot. This is a strong argument against a shot 3 miss.
The only leads to follow are Tague and the potential bullet strike near the manhole cover. I believe these things are connected and are the result of the shot that missed.