Et tu, Bonnie?

[Dan O'meara]

We return to the question: Why did Messrs Norman and Jarman go up to the fifth rather than the sixth floor? It is, I believe, closely related to the question: Why does Mr Rowland's description of the 'elderly negro' not match Mr Williams?

I believe Mr Williams may have indeed gone up to six in the expectation that other employees would do so also. He was not however allowed on to the sixth floor so went instead to the fifth. Messrs Norman and Jarman, down in the street, saw him up at the window on five and decided to join him.

According to Mr Rowland, the 'elderly negro' at the SN window was there at the same time as a man was standing back from the southwest window with a weapon in his hands. This fact speaks volumes.

If we take the various testimonies and statements of BRW, Norman and Jarman at face value, it appears two possibilities exist:

1)  BRW went up to the 6th floor and had his lunch alone, joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th later

2)  BRW is with Norman and Jarman on the first floor and goes up to the 5th floor with them, never going up to the 6th floor alone.

The option of BRW being on the 5th floor first then joined by Norman and Jarman later is not supported anywhere, by any testimony or any evidence.
It is, as usual, something you have completely fabricated in your mind, that has absolutely no basis in reality.

[Dan O'meara]

I can only guess that the Report needed to be constructed and the "Belin Ball solution", having Oswald silently crouched in the SN until Williams left the sixth floor was threatened by Rowland's 12.15 gunman. Easier to shift Williams visit backwards in time and have no way of interacting. Then just forget the testimonies of others that made the scenario impossible. This is what the report and LN Guru Bugliosi eventually rested on. Make the facts fit the conclusion......no one will read the documents anyway will they.....paraphrasing Allen Dulles.

"Then just forget the testimonies of others that made the scenario impossible."

The testimonies they have to forget include those of Jarman and Norman, who put BRW's arrival on the 5th floor after 12:25 PM
Rowland's testimony which places the gunman in the south-west corner of the 6th floor around 12:15 PM.
This is confirmed by Roger Craig's testimony - minutes after the shooting Rowland is telling him there was a gunman with a scoped rifle in the south-west corner of the building. This must also be ignored.
The testimonies of all the officers who put the lunch remains in/on the SN must also be ignored as they put BRW in the SN having his lunch which supports Rowland's testimony and also undermine BRW's claim he had his lunch between the third and fourth windows.
They must even ignore BRW's own testimony as he estimates his arrival on the 5th floor at 12:20 PM
They must also ignore Eddie Piper's testimony as it puts Oswald on the first floor at noon when he is supposed to be hiding in the SN.

This seems like a really large amount of testimonial evidence that has to be ignored to accept the "Belin/Ball solution".

Wouldn't it be easier to have BRW saying he was never on the 6th floor and was with Jarman and Norman when they went up to the 5th floor? This is what Norman and Jarman have been saying in their various statements to the FBI and SS. It's what BRW said on his affidavit.

[Alan Ford]

If we take the various testimonies and statements of BRW, Norman and Jarman at face value,

Why on earth would we do that, Mr O'Meara? Given the wild inconsistencies in their stories, that's about the dumbest thing we could do.

it appears two possibilities exist:

1)  BRW went up to the 6th floor and had his lunch alone, joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th later

2)  BRW is with Norman and Jarman on the first floor and goes up to the 5th floor with them, never going up to the 6th floor alone.

Because of your LN-lite desperation to keep any conspiracy in-house, you leave out a much stronger third possibility, to wit---------------

3) BRW was one of several manual employees who were kept off the sixth floor by 'security' men

The option of BRW being on the 5th floor first then joined by Norman and Jarman later is not supported anywhere, by any testimony or any evidence.
It is, as usual, something you have completely fabricated in your mind, that has absolutely no basis in reality.

Lol.

Mr Williams let out the very significant fact that the original plan of several manual employees was to watch the P. Parade from the sixth floor. What made them all change their plan? Their non-presence on the sixth floor at the time of the P. Parade is the dog that didn't bark. And you evidently have no answer to the question: Why would Messrs Norman and Jarman choose the fifth floor rather than the sixth?

I can't help noticing your manic veering between
-----------a) declaring the statements of Messrs Norman, Jarman, Williams and Dougherty to be riddled with contradictions (i.e. lies)
and
-----------b) attacking any attempt to tease out key facts they might be withholding by saying 'Nothing beyond what the men said is admissible evidence'.

Speaking of evidence: the 'elderly negro' described by Mr Rowland still doesn't fit Mr Williams. Big problem for your little theory!

[Alan Ford]

So! This is what I believe may have happened------------------

1. When the men came down for lunch, Mr Williams went out to buy lunch, leaving Messrs Norman and Jarman together. The agreement was to see each other 'up there' in a few minutes (i.e. on the sixth floor-----prime vantage point for the P. Parade)

2. At some point, Messrs Norman and Jarman went up to six but were met by 'security' and told the floor was off bounds. They went back downstairs and out on to the street

3. At some point, Mr Williams (having bought his lunch) went up to six but was met by 'security' and told the floor was off bounds. He went down to five instead.

4. It is also quite possible that others------Messrs. Lovelady, Arce and Dougherty--------went up at various times to six but were met etc.

5. Messrs Norman and Jarman, down in the street, noticed Mr Williams up at the window on five and decided to join him up there

6. Up until the shooting happened, any employee who had encountered the 'security' men on six had no idea anything sinister was afoot. When the assassination happened, of course, they realized with horror why those men had really been up there. And they knew they would be putting their life in danger if they ever talked about what they had seen. So they didn't talk about what they had seen----------and their all-important need NOT to talk about what they had seen led them to tell one lie and inconsistency after the other.

[Dan O'meara]

So! This is what I believe may have happened------------------

1. When the men came down for lunch, Mr Williams went out to buy lunch, leaving Messrs Norman and Jarman together. The agreement was to see each other 'up there' in a few minutes (i.e. on the sixth floor-----prime vantage point for the P. Parade)

2. At some point, Messrs Norman and Jarman went up to six but were met by 'security' and told the floor was off bounds. They went back downstairs and out on to the street

3. At some point, Mr Williams (having bought his lunch) went up to six but was met by 'security' and told the floor was off bounds. He went down to five instead.

4. It is also quite possible that others------Messrs. Lovelady, Arce and Dougherty--------went up at various times to six but were met etc.

5. Messrs Norman and Jarman, down in the street, noticed Mr Williams up at the window on five and decided to join him up there

6. Up until the shooting happened, any employee who had encountered the 'security' men on six had no idea anything sinister was afoot. When the assassination happened, of course, they realized with horror why those men had really been up there. And they knew they would be putting their life in danger if they ever talked about what they had seen. So they didn't talk about what they had seen----------and their all-important need NOT to talk about what they had seen led them to tell one lie and inconsistency after the other.

Utter fantasy.
Unsupported, unfounded fantasy.
There is zero evidence for your silly theory.

Just for fun...

Is the "elderly negro" in the SN part of your security team?
Why don't all of these men who were turned away from the 6th floor report what they've seen? What makes you fantasize that this group of men wouldn't have the balls to tell the DPD what they saw?
Why didn't Baker or Truly report your security team?
Why didn't Piper or West report seeing them enter or leave the building?

[Alan Ford]

Utter fantasy.
Unsupported, unfounded fantasy.
There is zero evidence for your silly theory.

Just for fun...

~Grin~

You gave as your knock-down argument that the only way Mr Williams would have been let leave the sixth floor is if he were part of the thing. I knocked your knock-down argument down by showing what a silly premise it was founded on. And now you're waving your hands in embarrassment. Funny!

Your belief that whoever planned to participate in this assassination from the sixth floor trusted to luck that no employees would decide to watch the P. Parade from up there is obviously the height of absurdity. 'Gee, guys, fingers crossed none of the workers come up... Whatever we do, let's NOT have a contingency plan in place for that...' 

Is the "elderly negro" in the SN part of your security team?

It's not a security team, duh. It's the assassination team. And if the 'elderly negro' seen by Mr Rowland is not Mr Eddie Piper, then yes------he is part of the team of non-employees on the sixth floor.

Why don't all of these men who were turned away from the 6th floor report what they've seen? What makes you fantasize that this group of men wouldn't have the balls to tell the DPD what they saw?

~Yawn~

Already answered, Mr O'Meara

Why didn't Baker or Truly report your security team?

It wasn't a security team, duh.

Mr Truly was in on the thing---------and he made sure to keep Officer Baker off the sixth floor.

But------of course-------Officer Baker did report on his encounter with one of the men ("As we reached the third or fourth floor, I saw a man walking away from the stairway..."). Mr Truly facilitated that man's escape by vouching for him as an employee

Why didn't Piper or West report seeing them enter or leave the building?

Either they didn't see them or they did and liked being alive.

What else ya got, Mr O'Meara? 

[Dan O'meara]

~Grin~

You gave as your knock-down argument that the only way Mr Williams would have been let leave the sixth floor is if he were part of the thing. I knocked your knock-down argument down by showing what a silly premise it was founded on. And now you're waving your hands in embarrassment. Funny!

What's funny is that I've never said anything like this anywhere.
Your fantasizing isn't just reserved for your crazy theories. You like to introduce it into the actual debate.
Think about it Alan - if he was part of it why would he be "let leave".

Your belief that whoever planned to participate in this assassination from the sixth floor trusted to luck that no employees would decide to watch the P. Parade from up there is obviously the height of absurdity. 'Gee, guys, fingers crossed none of the workers come up... Whatever we do, let's NOT have a contingency plan in place for that...' 

Who do the lunch remains belong to?

It's not a security team, duh. It's the assassination team. And if the 'elderly negro' seen by Mr Rowland is not Mr Eddie Piper, then yes------he is part of the team of non-employees on the sixth floor.

"3) BRW was one of several manual employees who were kept off the sixth floor by 'security' men"

   It's you who labelled them as 'security', not me!
Unbelievable.
And you still think it might be Eddie Piper!! 

Already answered, Mr O'Meara

You've not answered it at all.
Why would all these men fear for their lives?
Why would every single one of them not have the strength of character to say what they saw?
Other witnesses reported seeing a gunman on the 6th floor and they went to the authorities immediately. Did the TSBD only hire cowards?
This is just a convenient  excuse for you to hide behind.

It wasn't a security team, duh.

Mr Truly was in on the thing---------and he made sure to keep Officer Baker off the sixth floor.

But------of course-------Officer Baker did report on his encounter with one of the men ("As we reached the third or fourth floor, I saw a man walking away from the stairway..."). Mr Truly facilitated that man's escape by vouching for him as an employee

So your security team didn't leave the 6th floor together?
Why didn't Dorothy Garner see any of them leaving? Let me guess - she feared for her life 

Either they didn't see them or they did and liked being alive.

See above

What else ya got, Mr O'Meara? 

Theories based on witness testimony and physical evidence.
Give it a try some time, you might enjoy it.