Bravo to Liz Cheney and her Stand

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Liz Chaney?  Her father was responsible for the US intervening in a needless decades long war that cost thousands of US lives, countless of Iraqi lives (perhaps millions) and cost trillions of dollars.   All for nothing based on a fake narrative for a big payoff to Dick Cheney's cronies.  Did she ever condemn him in heroic role as the arbiter of right and wrong?  No?  But Trump is the devil because he doesn't play nice with others and holds them accountable for incompetence and corruption.

George Bush made the decision to go into Iraq. With the authorization from Congress, a Congress which also agreed that Iraq had WMD and that Saddam needed to be removed.

You think Cheney lied us into war? To reward Halliburton? How did he convince the Democrats like Biden to go along with this? Did he have a meeting with them on the Grassy Knoll too? How far down into conspiracy land are you going to go, Richard? Did Cheney con Tony Blair too?

The Robb/Silbermann Report concluded that: "The Intelligence Community's performance in assessing Iraq's pre-war weapons of mass destruction programs was a major intelligence failure. The failure was not merely that the Intelligence Community's assessments were wrong. There were also serious shortcomings in the way these assessments were made and communicated to policymakers."

It wasn't Cheney and the "necons". It was a major intelligence failure across the board. Did they exaggerate the threat, express more certainty then was warranted? Yes. Did they ignore contradictory evidence? Yes too. But they didn't make the claims out of whole cloth.

Back to the issue: The election wasn't stolen - Trump had a chance to present his case to the courts (including in front of some judges he appointed) and repeatedly failed; and the January 6th riot wasn't done by leftist agitators trying to embarrass Trump. The fact that Trump continues to promote these falsehoods - maybe he truly believes them - is simply irresponsible and dangerous. Period. These issues transcend partisan or party politics. Or should. This tribal thinking is going to destroy us.

And what does Liz Cheney's failure to condemn Dick Cheney have to do with what is being discussed? You sound like Keith Olbermann here.

[Jon Banks]

George Bush made the decision to go into Iraq. With the authorization from Congress, a Congress which also agreed that Iraq had WMD and that Saddam needed to be removed.

You think Cheney lied us into war? To reward Halliburton? How did he convince the Democrats like Biden to go along with this? Did he have a meeting with them on the Grassy Knoll too? How far down into conspiracy land are you going to go, Richard? Did Cheney con Tony Blair too?

The Congressional Military Industrial Complex(the name President Eisenhower gave them) is bipartisan and includes close allies like the UK and Israel.

The efforts at regime change in Iraq began during the Clinton administration. He used covert warfare while Bush used conventional war to take Saddam down. Hence why many Dems went along with the Intel and the efforts to start an unnecessary war.

It wasn't Cheney and the "necons". It was a major intelligence failure across the board. Did they exaggerate the threat, express more certainty then was warranted? Yes. Did they ignore contradictory evidence? Yes too. But they didn't make the claims out of whole cloth.

It was Dick Cheney and the Neocons who laundered disinformation about Saddam's connection to the 9/11 attacks through the NY Times and other Media outlets. That was one of the "Big Lies" used to sell the war to Americans.

And Liz Cheney continued to promote the WMD stuff and defend the decision to invade years after it was clear that there were no WMDs and the war was geopolitical blunder.

The war in Iraq helped Al Qaeda expand and created ISIS (the founders of ISIS were Iraqi insurgents who were jailed by the US at Camp Bucca).
 

[Richard Smith]

George Bush made the decision to go into Iraq. With the authorization from Congress, a Congress which also agreed that Iraq had WMD and that Saddam needed to be removed.

You think Cheney lied us into war? To reward Halliburton? How did he convince the Democrats like Biden to go along with this? Did he have a meeting with them on the Grassy Knoll too? How far down into conspiracy land are you going to go, Richard? Did Cheney con Tony Blair too?

The Robb/Silbermann Report concluded that: "The Intelligence Community's performance in assessing Iraq's pre-war weapons of mass destruction programs was a major intelligence failure. The failure was not merely that the Intelligence Community's assessments were wrong. There were also serious shortcomings in the way these assessments were made and communicated to policymakers."

It wasn't Cheney and the "necons". It was a major intelligence failure across the board. Did they exaggerate the threat, express more certainty then was warranted? Yes. Did they ignore contradictory evidence? Yes too. But they didn't make the claims out of whole cloth.

Back to the issue: The election wasn't stolen - Trump had a chance to present his case to the courts (including in front of some judges he appointed) and repeatedly failed; and the January 6th riot wasn't done by leftist agitators trying to embarrass Trump. The fact that Trump continues to promote these falsehoods - maybe he truly believes them - is simply irresponsible and dangerous. Period. These issues transcend partisan or party politics. Or should. This tribal thinking is going to destroy us.

And what does Liz Cheney's failure to condemn Dick Cheney have to do with what is being discussed? You sound like Keith Olbermann here.

Facts are facts.  Hundreds of thousands of people or perhaps millions are dead due to Dick Cheney based on a falsehood that he perpetuated.  Trump kept us out of foreign wars.  The first president to do so in decades.  Liz Cheney is just another tool of the establishment.  She hates Trump because he exposed the hypocrisy of the establishment politicians like her father.  Keith Olbermann?  Isn't he another Trump hater?  What is worse?  Being an obnoxious guy or getting people killed?  Trump is not a nice or likeable person.  But he never started a war.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Facts are facts.  Hundreds of thousands of people or perhaps millions are dead due to Dick Cheney based on a falsehood that he perpetuated.  Trump kept us out of foreign wars.  The first president to do so in decades.  Liz Cheney is just another tool of the establishment.  She hates Trump because he exposed the hypocrisy of the establishment politicians like her father.  Keith Olbermann?  Isn't he another Trump hater?  What is worse?  Being an obnoxious guy or getting people killed?  Trump is not a nice or likeable person.  But he never started a war.

The fact is that George Bush declared war not Dick Cheney. You think the Democrats in Congress that authorized the use of force - people like Biden and Kerry and Hillary Clinton - believed Cheney? They made their own decisions based on the evidence presented to them by the intelligence community.

And they said - not Dick Cheney - that Iraq still had WMDs and a WMD program. Did they all lie too? Bush? Biden? And all the others? Tony Blair? Other governments?

I still don't know what Dick Cheney and the Iraq War has to do with Liz Cheney's views on this issue of Trump's falsehoods about the election. How does one follow the second? If Liz Cheney had been against the war would that make her views on Trump and the election correct? What is the thinking here?

So Liz Cheney supported the Iraq War and therefore her views on Trump are wrong? That's illogical to me.

And Trump kept us out of wars (not really, he sent troops into Iraq to take on ISIS; but never mind) therefore what he says about the election and January 6th are fine? That's also illogical to me.

[Jon Banks]

I don't get why Cheney losing her leadership job is such a big deal. She voted to impeach Trump. Most Republicans disagreed with her decision.

Why are so many people still shocked that Trump is still political force within the GOP?

[Steve M. Galbraith]

I don't get why Cheney losing her leadership job is such a big deal. She voted to impeach Trump. Most Republicans disagreed with her decision.

Why are so many people still shocked that Trump is still political force within the GOP?

How would you respond to this observation by Jonathan Chait (certainly no conservative)?

Chait: "When Cheney’s liberal critics place her support for democracy alongside her other positions [e.g., the Iraq War, waterboarding], they implicitly endorse the same calculation made by her conservative opponents: that the rule of law is just another issue."

I have no idea what her views on the Iraq war or waterboarding or any other ancillary issue have to do with the far more important issue of the rule of law, of the fundamental questions of the legitimacy of the election and of the outrageous and unacceptable assault on January 6th.

If she was against the war then does that make her views on Trump and the election valid? They suddenly become correct?

Her views on Trump stand or fall on their own. People making political calculations here - weighing her views on Iraq and waterboarding versus her views on the rule of law - and then making a judgment as to whether to support her or oppose her are absolutely missing the challenge she and we face. There's nothing to weigh, no "on the other hand" judgment to consider.

[Jon Banks]

How would you respond to this observation by Jonathan Chait (certainly no conservative)?

Chait: "When Cheney’s liberal critics place her support for democracy alongside her other positions [e.g., the Iraq War, waterboarding], they implicitly endorse the same calculation made by her conservative opponents: that the rule of law is just another issue."

I have no idea what her views on the Iraq war or waterboarding or any other ancillary issue have to do with the far more important issue of the rule of law, of the fundamental questions of the legitimacy of the election and of the outrageous and unacceptable assault on January 6th.

If she was against the war then does that make her views on Trump and the election valid? They suddenly become correct?

Her views on Trump stand or fall on their own. People making political calculations here - weighing her views on Iraq and waterboarding versus her views on the rule of law - and then making a judgment as to whether to support her or oppose her are absolutely missing the challenge she and we face. There's nothing to weigh, no "on the other hand" judgment to consider.

It doesn’t matter what I think of her support for the Iraq war or her defense of Waterboarding.

If we believe in Democracy then we have to accept the political outcomes when they don’t go our way. Republicans (at least most of her colleagues in the House) no longer want Cheney as one of their leaders. The Republican  members of Congress have to answer to their constituents whom mostly support Trump. That’s representative Democracy in action.

I believe Cheney did the right thing but in politics, doing the right thing isn’t always rewarded…

[Richard Smith]

I don't get why Cheney losing her leadership job is such a big deal. She voted to impeach Trump. Most Republicans disagreed with her decision.

Why are so many people still shocked that Trump is still political force within the GOP?

It's a big deal only to Trump haters in the media because they can frame this in a way that they believe is negative toward him.  Almost no one outside the Beltway cares.  This is the same media that hated her father like he was Darth Vader.  Maybe with some justification.  Meanwhile the wheels are already coming off the Biden administration.  There are gas lines down South.  Shortages of almost every product (lumber, gas, chicken wings, furniture, washing machines etc).  You name it and it is out of stock.  Inflation and wide spread price increases.  Crime is rampant.  The Middle East in aflame.  But the media is worried about Liz Cheney establishment politician?  LOL