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Author Topic: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy  (Read 32965 times)

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #144 on: July 07, 2021, 07:09:26 AM »
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There's nothing at all ridiculous about it.  An unverifiable claim is just that.

Let me put this statement back in context:

JI: I don't know what the Nashes saw, but I do know anyone can claim that they saw anything.

MT: By this standard, we shouldn't believe Markham, Bowley, Davenport, your mom, or just about
anyone else. You've come up with the most ridiculous argument I've seen all week.

JI: There's nothing at all ridiculous about it.  An unverifiable claim is just that.


What you just said neither changes nor rebuts my point. If we can't absolutely verify
what the Nashes said they saw, we also cannot do so for Bowley, Davenport, Markham,
or --yes-- your mom. And if we should not believe the Nashes, then we should not
believe Bowley, Davenport, Markham, or your mom. My problem is, you apply this
in one direction only, against the Nash article. Had you really believed in the position
you now maintain, you wouldn't apply it so one-sidedly.

 

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #144 on: July 07, 2021, 07:09:26 AM »


Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #145 on: July 08, 2021, 05:56:12 AM »
Consider the phrase 'He put the slip into the time clock and stamped it 1:18 p.m., November 22, in the space marked “Time Called.”' Calling out a specific field on the card, to the point of putting that field's name in quotation marks, strongly implies that the Nashes saw the actual card and are describing what they saw on it.

It only implies that to you, because that's what you want it to imply.

Does this part: 'He put the slip into the time clock and stamped it 1:18 p.m., November 22, also imply that they saw him put the slip in the time clock?

Whatever you think something implies does not provide credible evidence. At best it provides an opinion.
Quotation marks are used to denote that something was actually said and/or written.  The Nashes wouldn't have used them unless it was something that they'd actually been told or had read. The real tipoff is the use of proper case in “Time Called.” Folks don't talk in proper case, so if the Nashes used it, then they had seen it written or printed that way. Of course, the HSCA/Butler interview page that Bill B posted ices the cake. You may not wan to believe that, but there it is.

That being said, let me answer your question with another: did the Nashes quote the phrase, ''[h]e put the slip into the time clock and stamped it 1:18 p.m., November 22"?


Then there is this sentence in the next paragraph: "The record shows that Butler called in to the funeral home at 1:26 p.m. to say he had reached the hospital." "The record" indicates that the Nashes  saw it written down. 1:26 ambulance arrival isn't anywhere in the DPD records that I know of. Nor does it appear in the Channel One recordings, so the only record left was what Dudley Hughes kept. And the obvious place that would appear in on the call sheet.

Consider this; according to the DPD transcripts the ambulance was called at 1:18 and Butler, the driver, is on record saying that from the departure at the funeral home to the arrival at the ambulance took less than four minutes. So, even if the 1:18 call is correct (which it isn't) the ambulance would have arrived at the hospital at 1:22, which makes a time of 1:26 not only not correct but impossible.

All of this could have been resolved by the investigators by collecting the original time stamped card from the funeral home and put it into evidence. This never happened, despite the fact that FBI agents, were talking to staff of the hospital and funeral home and producing FD 302 reports (which were later altered again). The time card is gone. It was never produced and I bet it doesn't even exists.

But even if it does and even if it said the call was received at 1:18, how do you know the clock of the funeral home was correct, when at the same time LNs are claiming that just about every other time piece, involved in this case, was wrong?
I've never said that the Dudley Hughes clock was correct. In fact, I've said from the beginning that I expect none of clock to show the exact correct time, unless it can be shown otherwise. As far as I can determine, DH time is about a minute behind DPD channel one time which is within a minute of channel two time which is a within a minute of correct time. That is, channel one can be determined to be within two minutes of standard time, and DH is about a minute behind that. I've already laid out the reasons why the different time pieces sort out this way, and see no reason to repeat myself.

Butler's recollection of the Tippit ambulance run is something he fished out his memory 14 years after the fact. He may remember it that way, but just the 1.5 mile trip from 404 E Tenth to Methodist  would have taken at least 3 minutes. Then you have to factor in the rest of the trip. Getting to the shooting site. Stopping not once, but twice (as Butler claimed). Getting out. Opening the back hatch. Hauling the gurney from the ambulance. Checking the status of the victim. Trying to radio the dispatcher that the victim is in fact a policeman. Lifting a limp, lifeless body up off the ground then arranging it properly on the gurney. Securing said limp lifeless body to said gurney so it the victim doesn't get thrown around the inside of the ambulance like a rag doll on the way to Methodist. Getting the gurney back into the the ambulance. Securing the gurney so that it doesn't become a rolling hazard inside the ambulance. Closing the back door. Getting back into the ambulance. Taking those few seconds to figure out the best way to get to Methodist. All of that has to happen before the ambulance crew even starts their journey to the ER. And then the ambulance has to back up to, get out, open the back door, get the gurney out, then explain the problem to the staff at the hospital. I'd say the ambulance action lasted more like 5 minutes stem to stern. Possibly even six. Maybe even seven.

You also haven't considered that the ambulance may have had a a separate radio channel for communications with their home base. Or, Butler may have just used a phone at the hospital. And did the ambulance call in their arrival before or after the body had been removed from the vehicle? There are too many unknowns to stake a position on 1:26 being impossible, as you have.

Finally, you're mad that the FBI or Warren Commission or whatever other investigative agency didn't sequester any documentation from Dudley Hughes and put it "into evidence" as you would prefer. Because those investigative agencies had nothing better to do in those days but figure out what some guys would be arguing about on the internet 60 years after the crime occurred, and failed to accede to your future demands for action.

Big whoop.

Has there really been a murder case in the modern world that was cracked by detailed examination of funeral home ambulance records?

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #146 on: July 08, 2021, 09:39:05 PM »
What you just said neither changes nor rebuts my point. If we can't absolutely verify
what the Nashes said they saw, we also cannot do so for Bowley, Davenport, Markham,
or --yes-- your mom.

Agreed.  So what?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #146 on: July 08, 2021, 09:39:05 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #147 on: July 08, 2021, 09:41:55 PM »
I've never said that the Dudley Hughes clock was correct. In fact, I've said from the beginning that I expect none of clock to show the exact correct time, unless it can be shown otherwise. As far as I can determine, DH time is about a minute behind DPD channel one time which is within a minute of channel two time which is a within a minute of correct time.

Nope.  You have no way of determining what "correct time" was.

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #148 on: July 09, 2021, 05:44:28 AM »
Quotation marks are used to denote that something was actually said and/or written.  The Nashes wouldn't have used them unless it was something that they'd actually been told or had read. The real tipoff is the use of proper case in “Time Called.” Folks don't talk in proper case, so if the Nashes used it, then they had seen it written or printed that way. Of course, the HSCA/Butler interview page that Bill B posted ices the cake. You may not wan to believe that, but there it is.


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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #148 on: July 09, 2021, 05:44:28 AM »


Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #149 on: July 10, 2021, 06:12:44 AM »
Agreed.  So what?
The "so, what" was covered by what I wrote that you didn't quote in your reply:

"And we should not believe the Nashes, then we should not believe Bowley, Davenport, Markham, or your mom. My problem is, you apply this in one direction only, against the Nash article. Had you really believed in the position you now maintain, you wouldn't apply it so one-sidedly."



Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #150 on: July 10, 2021, 06:18:08 AM »
[MT :Has there really been a murder case in the modern world that was cracked by detailed examination of funeral home ambulance records?]
So what if there hasn't?

There's no way the FBI could have known in advance that the time card would not influence or even crack the case; that's why evidence is collected even if it may initially seem insignificant and they evidently had every opportunity to secure this piece of evidence, yet failed to do so.

Your argument is entirely moot but shows well how confused you are about evidence.
So, you're saying that FBI should have sequestered any items as evidence even if they wouldn't have known at the time that it would become significant at some later date. That's an awful lot of sequestering. I mean, Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-Warehouse level an awful lot. And a pretty dumb idea to boot, if you bother to think about it.
   

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #151 on: July 10, 2021, 04:29:12 PM »
Nope.  You have no way of determining what "correct time" was.
Not that would ever satisfy you. But then again, you don't want to be satisfied an any way or to any extent.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #151 on: July 10, 2021, 04:29:12 PM »