DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy

[Tom Scully]

Dan and Dan,

I've read this thread with interest, and while I honestly don't have time - or the necessary access to my files, which I've stored offsite - I will try to assist (from memory, so some errors are inevitable for which I apologize in advance!) in some way with the issues you raise.

First, with reference to transcripts, there are many, many versions of the DPD radio transcripts, and probably all of them contain errors, omissions, etc., of one kind or another. For example, the Secret Service, the Dallas Police, and the FBI all made transcripts, in addition to private transcripts made by Jim Bowles, Arch Kimbrough, Dave Dix, Russ Sheerer and many others. Some of these purport to be "complete" transcripts, while even more are only partial transcripts.

Add to this the fact that there are numerous copies of the radio recordings themselves, too. Again, many of these are only partial copies which, like some of the transcripts, focus on segments of the recordings of particular interest to the author/originator. All of these recordings are many, many generations removed from the original recordings - the Channel 1 recordings were voice-activated, made in "real time" onto flimsy blue polyester dictabelts by means of a stylus cutting a continuous grove onto a blank belt, capable of holding up to 30 minutes worth of sound recordings. In order to ensure that no break in recording, the radio messages were recorded such that there was an "overlap" of about 15-20 seconds at the end of each belt and the start of the next belt. Similarly, Channel 2 (an auxiliary channel used to handle additional radio traffic generated by special events) was also a voice-activated recording, recorded onto flexible green plastic discs. On the day of the assassination, there were two dispatchers working together on Channel 1 at any one time (Officers Hulse and Jackson at the time of the assassination, if I remember correctly), while another dispatcher (Sgt. Henslee) was working Channel 2 on his own, so it is not really surprising that there are discrepancies between what was said (and when it was said) by the dispatcher on either channel.

Over time, both the channel 1 and 2 recordings were copied onto a variety of media, including reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, PC diskettes, hard drives, etc. The quality of these copies varied immensely, as did the recording speeds of the devices on which they were copied. In addition, the physical location of the original recordings over the years was not always the best in terms of protecting the recordings - in envelopes in boxes, in drawers in filing cabinets, and other such places, and certainly not in ideal storage conditions in terms of temperature and humidity-controlled environments, either.
-SNIP-

Fruit of a poisoned tree?

DPD officer R.C. Nelson remains silent for 50 years despite having a younger brother who retired in 2018 after 49 years as a news reporter, including from 1992 to 2018 at "CBS 4" in Miami. And, when Nelson finally breaks his silence after 50 years, he gives the interview to the investigative reporter of his brother's TV station, and not to his brother.

Could it be that Nelson wanted to avoid imparting on his brother, the stench that DPD dispatcher Murray Jackson applied to the investigation, apparently with the support of his DPD superiors, while Rankin and his investigation and the SS and FBI cooperated?

Sylvia Meagher :

(Sylvia seems to have gotten a few things wrong, judging with the benefit of hindsight that did not exist in 1967, but probably did in 1987 when "Bush tool" and "CIA influenced "author" Henry Hurt presented Sylvia's post WC Report analysis as if it were current:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2509.msg111782.html#msg111782 )







In the following page, Sylvia Meagher had no way to know of RC Nelson's claim he went to
the Texas Theatre, arriving in time for Oswald's arrest, because Nelson was never questioned in
any investigation and remained silent until 2013.:











https://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/22/pine-crest-students-learn-about-jfk-from-his-close-advisor/
November 22, 2013
"....CBS4’s Gary Nelson recounted where he was the day JFK was shot. “I was in the seventh grade when JFK was assassinated. We listened, my classmates and I, to hours of Walter Cronkite’s coverage on the school’s loudspeaker. We cried. We were confused. We knew we had experienced profound loss.”.."

At bottom of following November 20, 2013, article:
(Disclosure: R.C. Nelson is the brother of CBS4 News’ Gary Nelson)

https://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/20/exclusive-jfk-assassination-witness-speaks-for-1st-time/
Exclusive: JFK Assassination Witness Speaks For 1st Time
CBS4 Investigative Reporter Jilda Unruh Contributed To This Report
November 20, 2013
DALLAS (CBSMiami) – When President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was cut down by an assassin, a chain of events began that included the murder of a police officer, the capture of the alleged presidential assassin, and the murder of the assassin.

In the 50 years since the Kennedy assassination, one Dallas Police officer who was in the middle of the chaos that enveloped the city in the hours and days that followed the murder has never shared his story about what he saw, heard and did. Until now.

For the first time ever, R.C. Nelson, retired from the Dallas Police, talked exclusively to CBSMiami.com about the pandemonium that came after the assassin’s bullets rang out in Dallas. Nelson has never spoken about the events, even to the Warren Commission.

On November 22, 1963, Nelson was working out of the southwest substation in Dallas. He said that police were spread all over the city guarding multiple areas.

“Only two people were working the south district,” Nelson said, “my partner J.D. Tippit and me. Tippit was working the entire Oak Cliff section.”

On a normal day, Nelson estimated there would have been 10-12 squads covering the area.

Nelson said he was across the viaduct from the Texas Book Depository when he heard the shots ring out in the cold Dallas air. The police dispatch was almost immediately on the air with reports of shots fired.

What Nelson heard was the shots that would forever change American history. President Kennedy, riding through Dealey Plaza in Dallas was shot along with Texas Governor John Connolly. Kennedy was fatally wounded by a second shot after the initial shot appeared to go through his neck.

Nelson said he was on the scene within two minutes and when he arrived, people were still on the ground and screaming. Nelson asked a motorman when he got to the scene what had happened?

“Somebody shot and killed Kennedy,” Nelson recalled the “motor jockey” (motor patrolman) saying. “He was up there (pointing to book depository). I saw the rifle in the window when I looked up.” Nelson said the motorman then said, “I saw Kennedy’s head blown off.”

Nelson contacted an inspector to ask what to do and his superior told him to just be in the area.

It wasn’t long after the assassination of President Kennedy that a second call came across the Dallas Police dispatch radio, this time of an officer shot in Oak Cliff. The officer, J.D. Tippit, was Nelson’s partner on “night shifts and deep night shifts,” but the two were not paired together on November 22.

Officer Tippit was described by Nelson as a, “nice, east Texas guy who loved his family and worked hard and did what he was supposed to do, but wasn’t very curious. He liked to write his tickets and go home. He had a bad habit of not looking at you when he was talking to you.”

Nelson said he had actually talked to Officer Tippit before the fateful day in Dallas about his partner’s tendency toward avoiding eye contact with subjects.

Official reports said that Officer Tippit pulled over Lee Harvey Oswald based on a description that was broadcast over the Dallas Police radio. Oswald then murdered Tippit before leaving the scene of the murder.

Nelson said he believed that Oswald actually flagged Officer Tippit down because he “can’t imagine Tippit pulling him (Oswald) over and saying “come here.”

“I think he (Oswald) was amazed that he wasn’t arrested after the shooting,” Nelson recalled. “The book depository was covered with cops and he walks out! He didn’t appear to have a plan. He couldn’t go home. So he hails a cab and then gets on a bus.”

Another aspect of Nelson’s belief that Tippit didn’t seek out Oswald was that Tippit didn’t secure or guard his pistol and the first shot hit the officer in the temple, suggesting Tippitt was looking away.

Oswald shot Tippit on 10th Street in Dallas and Nelson and several others went to a library a block away.

“While we were preparing to go into the library, we heard someone had gone into the Texas (movie) theater without paying,” Nelson said. “It was about three blocks away and we converged on the Texas theater.”

A view of the interior of the Texas Theater October 8, 2013 in Dallas, Texas.   (Source: AFP Photo/Brendan

Nelson said he first went to the back entrance, but then that went to the front of the theater and entered the lobby.

Three police officers, Nick McDonald, C.T. Walker, and Charles Harrison were bringing Oswald into the lobby.

“Apparently, Oswald hit McDonald, then pulled a gun on him and one of the other (cops) knocked the gun away,” Nelson recalled. “That’s when McDonald punched Oswald. Both of them had bumps on their heads. I watched as Oswald came out of the theater in handcuffs.”

But that’s not where Nelson’s brush with history, or the story of Oswald ended.

Two days after the assassination of Kennedy and with an entire nation in mourning, Nelson was assigned to the basement’s main door entrance from city hall. Oswald was scheduled to be moved from city hall to the county jail and he was being moved through the basement.

Nelson said all of the television cameras, which broadcast the transfer and what happened in the basement, entered through the door where he was standing guard.

As Oswald was moving through the basement, Nelson was approximately 20 feet away when he heard a shot ring out and then chaos. Chicago businessman Jack Ruby had gotten into the basement and shot Oswald with a .38 revolver.

Nelson said Ruby was bent over and he heard someone yell, “Get his gun.”

“I grabbed for his hands and didn’t find a gun,” Nelson said. “But I managed to manhandle him into the basement jail house office and handcuffed him.”

Ruby reportedly said, “It’s me, it’s Jack,” right after he fired the fatal shot at Oswald. Ruby knew several Dallas Police officers, but Nelson said he was not familiar with him.

What hasn’t been shared before is what Nelson said happened just before the shooting and then in the immediate aftermath.

According to Nelson, right before Oswald was brought to the basement, a Dallas Police decoy car was brought to the basement and plain clothes cops were put inside the car to distract the media from the real transfer vehicle.

The decoy car drove up the north ramp, which Nelson said was actually the entry ramp to the basement.

“They drove up the north ramp which was actually the entry ramp into the basement and drove around the block,” Nelson said.

Nelson said the lieutenant driving the decoy car came walking back through his area after parking in the basement again. Nelson said he was positive that Ruby had not passed him to get into the basement.

According to Nelson, Lieutenant Sam Pierce said Ruby walked right by the decoy car and walked down the north ramp into the basement. Shortly after the shooting, however, Nelson was told Dallas Chief of Police Jesse Curry wanted to see him.

When Nelson got to Chief Curry’s office, he saw Lieutenant Pierce was already in the office. The chief told Nelson, “R.C., this isn’t going to be held against you with all the TV cameras that were coming into the basement.”

Nelson thought Chief Curry was implying that Ruby had gotten past him. Nelson said he told the chief that, “You can tell them anything you want, but Ruby didn’t come by me!”

In the days that followed, Officer Tippit would be laid to rest and when Nelson saw his former partner’s wife to try to comfort her was hard.

“The first time I had contact with her; it was tough,” Nelson recalled. “You’ve got a
partner and you see his wife and kid at his funeral. (Choking up) It was pretty tough.”

Over the next year, the Warren Commission investigated the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. Despite his being right in the middle of the historical events, Nelson said he was never called to testify.

“I thought it was kind of strange, because all during the Warren Commission hearings, no one knew how Ruby got into the basement,” Nelson said.

As the decades have gone by, Nelson said he’s had a chance to talk about the events, but said he didn’t “feel like talking about it.”

“Several authors contacted me and I just didn’t feel like it,” Nelson said. “But lately, many of my family members have tried to get me to tell my story.”

R.C. also said that some authors have even alleged that he was “involved in the conspiracy.”

“I wasn’t,” Nelson said. “I want my family to have something recorded so my great-grand kids will know the real facts.”

[Chris Scally]

Dan O'Meara:

As promised, I did the best I could in terms of answering the points you made in the OP over the weekend, and hope my answers are of some help to you in resolving your queries.

Before I go any further, I'd offer a few preliminary observations to give the matter some context:

(1) The dispatcher was not required to note the time after every transmission – it would have been very useful to us, but it didn’t happen in quite a number cases, particularly when there was heavy radio traffic
(2) Using transcripts alone to determine when things happened is fraught with danger. I did some study many years ago on the number of actual radio transmissions on the recordings, compared with those transcribed on probably the best publicly-available “verbatim” transcript of channel 1, and while I cannot now recall the details, I do remember that the transcript was woefully incomplete. While others may disagree, I honestly believe that listening to the actual recordings is the only way to get an accurate picture of what was going on, and how the messages between the dispatchers and the officers on the ground relate to one another in context.
(3) It is worth remembering that both DPD radio channels were voice-activated, so the recording devices did not record continuously
 
Now, to deal with the "5-8 minute" gap, and the “nine minute section of radio silence on Channel 2” mentioned in the OP, I have listened to the most complete copy of the DPD radio recordings that I have (which were obtained from NARA some years ago), and I have found the following:

The two radio channels were in sync at 12:45, when the “Attention all squads, attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston …” notification was broadcast simultaneously on both channels.
 
On Channel 1, the Dispatcher (Hulse or Jackson) tells 241 (Officer Hollingsworth) to collect some blood from the Blood Bank on Commerce Street and take it to Parkland Hospital. 241 apparently responds immediately, telling the dispatcher that he is “en route”. 18 transmissions/exchanges later, the dispatcher announces the time as 1:04 – this puts the call probably somewhere between 1:03 and 1:04, probably closer to the latter. Seven radio exchanges later, 241 reports that he is at the Blood Bank, and 6 transmissions later, Captain Souter advises the dispatcher that “241’s got it and gone” – namely, he has collected the blood, and has headed for Parkland.

Meanwhile, on Channel 2, the request from Patrolman Chism for a squad to go to the Blood Bank and pick up some blood and take it to Parkland occurs three transmissions after the dispatcher (Henslee) announced the time as being 1 PM, and before he announced the time as 1:03.
 
It was also noted in the OP that immediately after the “Blood Bank” message on Channel 2, Captain Souter asked for a status report on the well-being of the President and Governor Connolly. My interpretation of the recordings shows that the reply to Capt. Souter followed in the very next transmission, and also occurred before the time announcement of 1:03 on Channel 2.

In summary, then, I don't find any evidence of an unexplainable gap in the recordings, or a nine minute period of radio silence, in the 1 PM to 1:05 PM time frame on either channel.

As previously noted, my time is at a premium right now, and much of my old research is locked away (for reasons of space, primarily), but I hope that what I've posted here is on some value/help to you in your work.

Chris Scally.

[Dan O'meara]

Dan O'Meara:

As promised, I did the best I could in terms of answering the points you made in the OP over the weekend, and hope my answers are of some help to you in resolving your queries.

Before I go any further, I'd offer a few preliminary observations to give the matter some context:

(1) The dispatcher was not required to note the time after every transmission – it would have been very useful to us, but it didn’t happen in quite a number cases, particularly when there was heavy radio traffic
(2) Using transcripts alone to determine when things happened is fraught with danger. I did some study many years ago on the number of actual radio transmissions on the recordings, compared with those transcribed on probably the best publicly-available “verbatim” transcript of channel 1, and while I cannot now recall the details, I do remember that the transcript was woefully incomplete. While others may disagree, I honestly believe that listening to the actual recordings is the only way to get an accurate picture of what was going on, and how the messages between the dispatchers and the officers on the ground relate to one another in context.
(3) It is worth remembering that both DPD radio channels were voice-activated, so the recording devices did not record continuously
 
Now, to deal with the "5-8 minute" gap, and the “nine minute section of radio silence on Channel 2” mentioned in the OP, I have listened to the most complete copy of the DPD radio recordings that I have (which were obtained from NARA some years ago), and I have found the following:

The two radio channels were in sync at 12:45, when the “Attention all squads, attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston …” notification was broadcast simultaneously on both channels.
 
On Channel 1, the Dispatcher (Hulse or Jackson) tells 241 (Officer Hollingsworth) to collect some blood from the Blood Bank on Commerce Street and take it to Parkland Hospital. 241 apparently responds immediately, telling the dispatcher that he is “en route”. 18 transmissions/exchanges later, the dispatcher announces the time as 1:04 – this puts the call probably somewhere between 1:03 and 1:04, probably closer to the latter. Seven radio exchanges later, 241 reports that he is at the Blood Bank, and 6 transmissions later, Captain Souter advises the dispatcher that “241’s got it and gone” – namely, he has collected the blood, and has headed for Parkland.

Meanwhile, on Channel 2, the request from Patrolman Chism for a squad to go to the Blood Bank and pick up some blood and take it to Parkland occurs three transmissions after the dispatcher (Henslee) announced the time as being 1 PM, and before he announced the time as 1:03.
 
It was also noted in the OP that immediately after the “Blood Bank” message on Channel 2, Captain Souter asked for a status report on the well-being of the President and Governor Connolly. My interpretation of the recordings shows that the reply to Capt. Souter followed in the very next transmission, and also occurred before the time announcement of 1:03 on Channel 2.

In summary, then, I don't find any evidence of an unexplainable gap in the recordings, or a nine minute period of radio silence, in the 1 PM to 1:05 PM time frame on either channel.

As previously noted, my time is at a premium right now, and much of my old research is locked away (for reasons of space, primarily), but I hope that what I've posted here is on some value/help to you in your work.

Chris Scally.

Thanks so much for taking the time to look into it Chris.
It was always a long-shot of sorts as such a large discrepancy so soon after both Channels were in synch with each other and with "real time" would hint at a deliberate attempt to alter the tapes.
Although there are vague hints something like this may have happened there is nothing definitive.

Back to the drawing board.
But thanks again.

[Chris Scally]

Thanks, Dan - you are very welcome, and I'll keep an eye on this thread going forward!

[Tom Scully]

Thanks so much for taking the time to look into it Chris.
It was always a long-shot of sorts as such a large discrepancy so soon after both Channels were in synch with each other and with "real time" would hint at a deliberate attempt to alter the tapes.
Although there are vague hints something like this may have happened there is nothing definitive.

Back to the drawing board.
But thanks again.

Excerpt from Billy Joe Lord's March, 1977 letter to President Carter. "One of the parties" is Henry Hurt.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9963#relPageId=269


Dan, as recently as in 1986 when Henry Hurt finally published his book, it appears "team Bush" (AKA the Establishment, CIA, PTB...) encouraged belief there was fraud, obstruction of justice associated with the tapes, unless Henry Hurt was not the meticulous sleuth supported since 1976 with generously financed, professional research and wide contacts.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2509.msg111782.html#new

... The opposite of what would be expected of these "stalwarts", especially considering
Bush's eulogy at Gerry Ford's funeral.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/washington/02cnd-ford-bush.html
"...And the conspiracy theorists can say what they will, but the Warren Commission report will always have the final definitive say on this tragic matter. Why? Because Jerry Ford put his name on it and Jerry Ford’s word was always good."

Is it random coincidence Bush, through his support of Henry Hurt which is obvious in Billy Joe Lord's letter to Jimmy Carter, that what Bush and Henry Hurt conveyed to the American people was as contradictory and nonsensical as what Garrison did? Isn't that the SOP of "outfits" like the CIA ... one big, "76 year old, former DCI takes fatal, pitch-black evening canoe ride after working hard all day, from dock adjacent to his home"?
http://www.pythiapress.com/wartales/colby.htm

Henry Hurt's son... a "career" of disinfo :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hurt
Charles Hurt (born 1971)[1] is an American journalist and political commentator. He is currently the opinion editor of The Washington Times,[2][3][4] Fox News contributor,[5] Breitbart News contributor, and a Drudge Report editor.[2]
...
Hurt was The New York Post's D.C. Bureau Chief and news columnist covering the White House for five years.

From 2003 to 2007, Hurt covered the U.S. Congress as a reporter for The Washington Times[6] before leaving to join The New York Post. In 2011, he rejoined The Washington Times as a political columnist.[3] In December 2016, Hurt was named the opinion editor.[4]

National Review editor Rich Lowry described Hurt as, "an early adopter of Trumpite populism."[7] Hurt has written numerous opinion pieces lauding Trump since the 2016 election.[8]

Personal life
Hurt is a native of Chatham, Virginia.[9] Hurt is the son of investigative journalist and former Reader's Digest editor Henry C. Hurt and his wife, Margaret Nolting Williams.[10][11]

[Dan O'meara]

Tom - you make my brain hurt.

After going through the leads you've posted, the only thing I can find that is relevant to this thread (which is not to say it isn't fascinating stuff) is that it is suggested the order given to Tippit to move into Oak Cliff may have actually been overdubbed on the tapes and then put into the transcripts of the tapes.
There is also a clear discrepancy between the first DPD transcripts given to the WC and the McAdams transcripts concerning Nelson trying to call in just after the 12:47 time call.
It seems possible the tapes have been altered although I can't see anything definitive. Whatever the case, I'm not seeing anything that might account for a 5 -6 minute discrepancy between "police time" and "real time" within 40 minutes of the synchronisation outlined in the OP.

[The Lord stuff really is fascinating but I'm nowhere near that level of detail into the case. I've only recently just got out of Dealey Plaza in terms of trying to understand what's going on.]

[Tom Scully]

Tom - you make my brain hurt.

After going through the leads you've posted, the only thing I can find that is relevant to this thread (which is not to say it isn't fascinating stuff) is that it is suggested the order given to Tippit to move into Oak Cliff may have actually been overdubbed on the tapes and then put into the transcripts of the tapes.
There is also a clear discrepancy between the first DPD transcripts given to the WC and the McAdams transcripts concerning Nelson trying to call in just after the 12:47 time call.
It seems possible the tapes have been altered although I can't see anything definitive. Whatever the case, I'm not seeing anything that might account for a 5 -6 minute discrepancy between "police time" and "real time" within 40 minutes of the synchronisation outlined in the OP.

[The Lord stuff really is fascinating but I'm nowhere near that level of detail into the case. I've only recently just got out of Dealey Plaza in terms of trying to understand what's going on.]

Dan, I began my posts on this page intending to show you that Henry Hurt backing Sylvia Meagher's presentation that supports the tapes being altered and untrustworthy must have had an ulterior motive. Instead, what I've found and posted here, today, ...author Henry Hurt would never mistakenly do what I present him doing about the 12:45 dubbing question, so he must have done this on purpose.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2509.msg111782.html#new

..strikes me as even more troubling. It seems as if the question of the reliability of the tapes and the transcripts based on them, is just one small slice of an establishment backed psy-op I think Garrison also participated in, just following orders, to reduce all JFK Assassination related controversies to Chaos... a never ending disinfo stream.

[Dan O'meara]

Dan, I began my posts on this page intending to show you that Henry Hurt backing Sylvia Meagher's presentation that supports the tapes being altered and untrustworthy must have had an ulterior motive. Instead, what I've found and posted here, today, ...author Henry Hurt would never mistakenly do what I present him doing about the 12:45 dubbing question, so he must have done this on purpose.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2509.msg111782.html#new

..strikes me as even more troubling. It seems as if the question of the reliability of the tapes and the transcripts based on them, is just one small slice of an establishment backed psy-op I think Garrison also participated in, just following orders, to reduce all JFK Assassination related controversies to Chaos... a never ending disinfo stream.

I've been at this about a year now and one thing I have noticed is that there is hardly a single eye-witness testimony or piece of evidence that isn't contradicted and/or dubious in some way. It's a really striking aspect of this case.
The truth should be a fairly straight-forward matter in my opinion, even taking into account witness unreliability or the incompetence/corruption that features in the investigation.
But this is something else and is at the heart of why so many people can hold so many different views of what happened.
I find it difficult not to draw the conclusion that the Chaos you mention signifies a deliberate (and very successful) attempt to obscure the truth of what really happened.
I'm still in the process of trying to pick my own path through this labyrinth, all I can do is follow my own interpretation of things but that may end up having little to do with the actual truth of the matter.