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Author Topic: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?  (Read 41065 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #232 on: August 19, 2021, 11:00:04 PM »
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Okay, thank you very much. That description is quite different from my earlier assumption. I have learned the hard way (many different times and ways) not to rely to heavily on assumptions. Now hopefully our discussion can move along in the correct direction.

I love it when information can be presented and discussed and debated in an attempt to determine the FACTS.  I had hoped that Mr Organ would be less dogmatic and more honest..... but for whatever reason refuses to engage in candid discussion.    He and I have been spitting at each other about the exact location at which the carcano was found.   Not much progress has been made, and he still believes that the official DPD in situ photo is the authentic photo of the rifle as it was found by Eugene Boone and Seymour Weitzman.    This in spite of the fact that their descriptions given in their affidavits,  of the rifle's position and location, does not fit with the official DPD in situ photo.   
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 11:06:13 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #232 on: August 19, 2021, 11:00:04 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #233 on: August 20, 2021, 01:07:58 AM »
I love it when information can be presented and discussed and debated in an attempt to determine the FACTS.  I had hoped that Mr Organ would be less dogmatic and more honest..... but for whatever reason refuses to engage in candid discussion.    He and I have been spitting at each other about the exact location at which the carcano was found.   Not much progress has been made, and he still believes that the official DPD in situ photo is the authentic photo of the rifle as it was found by Eugene Boone and Seymour Weitzman.    This in spite of the fact that their descriptions given in their affidavits,  of the rifle's position and location, does not fit with the official DPD in situ photo.   

You think "correct direction" means someone is about to agree with you?   :D

Not if you keep serving up "facts" like ...
  • the card was 3" X 5"
  • the wooden forestock was "resting" on the open hand (your "explanation" for the 3/4"-square palm-print if the tape is 1")
  • ("If the tape is 2 inches wide.......Then the card is 6.7 inches wide and 10 inches long...")



Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #234 on: August 20, 2021, 02:40:24 AM »
I love it when information can be presented and discussed and debated in an attempt to determine the FACTS.  I had hoped that Mr Organ would be less dogmatic and more honest..... but for whatever reason refuses to engage in candid discussion.    He and I have been spitting at each other about the exact location at which the carcano was found.   Not much progress has been made, and he still believes that the official DPD in situ photo is the authentic photo of the rifle as it was found by Eugene Boone and Seymour Weitzman.    This in spite of the fact that their descriptions given in their affidavits,  of the rifle's position and location, does not fit with the official DPD in situ photo.   


I love it when information can be presented and discussed and debated in an attempt to determine the FACTS.

Yes, now that we know enough information about the relevant details we can confidently say that the groove for the bayonet wasn't in a location to affect a lift off the bottom of the barrel. I have thought about the possible reasons for the two parallel lines and currently believe the following theory. The channel in the wooden stock for the barrel is rounded on the bottom in every rifle I have ever seen. So I assume that the Carcano is the same (please correct me if this is not accurate). This groove is very slightly larger than the barrel, for clearance, and typically it's depth is about half the diameter of the barrel (again, please correct me if this is inaccurate).

For illustration purposes I drilled a 5/8" diameter hole in a piece of 1" square dowel. Then I split the square dowel in half with a band saw to form a similar channel in the square dowel (representing the rifle stock) for use with the 5/8" round wooden dowel (that represents the rifle barrel). I needed to sand the inside of the channel just enough for clearance for the round dowel to sit all the way to the bottom of the channel. Here are some photos of what I just described above:










As can be seen, there is a very slight gap on both sides of the round dowel between the round dowel and the channel in the square dowel. Dust and dirt, etc can and will enter this gap and fall towards the bottom of the channel. However, the round dowel (barrel) is resting on the bottom of the channel causing the gap to get narrower towards the bottom of the channel. Therefore the size of the dust and dirt will limit how far down the gap it can travel before it gets trapped. And two lines of this debris, similar to what can be seen on the lift from the rifle, will be the result. A less than 100% thorough cleaning of the underside of the barrel might leave a small portion of these lines (the portion very close to the bayonet lug) on the barrel. I believe that this theory is a likely one that could explain why the debris formed the two lines.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 02:44:32 AM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #234 on: August 20, 2021, 02:40:24 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #235 on: August 20, 2021, 03:59:48 AM »

I love it when information can be presented and discussed and debated in an attempt to determine the FACTS.

Yes, now that we know enough information about the relevant details we can confidently say that the groove for the bayonet wasn't in a location to affect a lift off the bottom of the barrel. I have thought about the possible reasons for the two parallel lines and currently believe the following theory. The channel in the wooden stock for the barrel is rounded on the bottom in every rifle I have ever seen. So I assume that the Carcano is the same (please correct me if this is not accurate). This groove is very slightly larger than the barrel, for clearance, and typically it's depth is about half the diameter of the barrel (again, please correct me if this is inaccurate).

Charles you're are thinking....and you're right ...the 5/8"metal barrel is in fact supported by the wooden stock...However in the case of the carcano the barrel is not supported by the wooden stock along the entire length...... There are two "cut outs" the  in the bottom of the barrel channel groove.  The cut outs are routered out elongated holes in the bottom of the barrel grove.  The larger of the two router holes is about four inches long and the other router hole is about 2 1/4 inches long. this shorter router hole is located direct beneath the barrel in the exact place where the 'palm print" is shown in the palm print photo.

 

For illustration purposes I drilled a 5/8" diameter hole in a piece of 1" square dowel. Then I split the square dowel in half with a band saw to form a similar channel in the square dowel (representing the rifle stock) for use with the 5/8" round wooden dowel (that represents the rifle barrel). I needed to sand the inside of the channel just enough for clearance for the round dowel to sit all the way to the bottom of the channel. Here are some photos of what I just described above:










As can be seen, there is a very slight gap on both sides of the round dowel between the round dowel and the channel in the square dowel. Dust and dirt, etc can and will enter this gap and fall towards the bottom of the channel. However, the round dowel (barrel) is resting on the bottom of the channel causing the gap to get narrower towards the bottom of the channel. Therefore the size of the dust and dirt will limit how far down the gap it can travel before it gets trapped. And two lines of this debris, similar to what can be seen on the lift from the rifle, will be the result. A less than 100% thorough cleaning of the underside of the barrel might leave a small portion of these lines (the portion very close to the bayonet lug) on the barrel. I believe that this theory is a likely one that could explain why the debris formed the two lines.

Your theory is not possible because the 2 1/4 inch long routered out cavity directly below the area where the palm print is shown to be in the palm print photo ( CE 639)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #236 on: August 20, 2021, 12:47:52 PM »
Your theory is not possible because the 2 1/4 inch long routered out cavity directly below the area where the palm print is shown to be in the palm print photo ( CE 639)

What are you talking about, a notch for the bayonet lug to slide into? Please explain this routered out cavity in detail. You already told us that there is about 3/8” of wood between the groove for the bayonet itself (when stored) and the bottom of the barrel. So your descriptions are confusing and seem to be conflicting..
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 12:52:25 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #236 on: August 20, 2021, 12:47:52 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #237 on: August 20, 2021, 04:32:13 PM »
What are you talking about, a notch for the bayonet lug to slide into? Please explain this routered out cavity in detail. You already told us that there is about 3/8” of wood between the groove for the bayonet itself (when stored) and the bottom of the barrel. So your descriptions are confusing and seem to be conflicting..

I'm sorry Charles, I posted this ( below) in your text..... I thought I was responding AFTER your text....


Charles you're are thinking....and you're right ...the 5/8"metal barrel is in fact supported by the wooden stock...However in the case of the carcano the barrel is not supported by the wooden stock along the entire length...... There are two "cut outs" the  in the bottom of the barrel channel groove.  The cut outs are routered out elongated holes in the bottom of the barrel grove.  The larger of the two router holes is about four inches long and the other router hole is about 2 1/4 inches long. this shorter router hole is located direct beneath the barrel in the exact place where the 'palm print" is shown in the palm print photo.

Your theory is not possible because the 2 1/4 inch long routered out cavity directly below the area where the palm print is shown to be in the palm print photo ( CE 639)

P.S. The router "cavities" at the bottom of the rifle barrel channel are 3/8" deep....  ie;  the cavities in the bottom of the barrel channel are 3/8" below the barrel when the barrel is in the stock.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 04:39:29 PM by Walt Cakebread »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #238 on: August 20, 2021, 05:10:17 PM »
I'm sorry Charles, I posted this ( below) in your text..... I thought I was responding AFTER your text....


Charles you're are thinking....and you're right ...the 5/8"metal barrel is in fact supported by the wooden stock...However in the case of the carcano the barrel is not supported by the wooden stock along the entire length...... There are two "cut outs" the  in the bottom of the barrel channel groove.  The cut outs are routered out elongated holes in the bottom of the barrel grove.  The larger of the two router holes is about four inches long and the other router hole is about 2 1/4 inches long. this shorter router hole is located direct beneath the barrel in the exact place where the 'palm print" is shown in the palm print photo.

Your theory is not possible because the 2 1/4 inch long routered out cavity directly below the area where the palm print is shown to be in the palm print photo ( CE 639)

P.S. The router "cavities" at the bottom of the rifle barrel channel are 3/8" deep....  ie;  the cavities in the bottom of the barrel channel are 3/8" below the barrel when the barrel is in the stock.

Thanks, how wide are these routered channels, also 3/8”? And how accurate is the 3/8” measurement? I am thinking that Italy manufacturing would have been on the metric system back then. Can you measure them in millimeters? Also what purpose do these routered cavities serve is the one near the muzzle end of the stock for the bayonet lug to slide into?

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #239 on: August 20, 2021, 07:14:38 PM »
Thanks, how wide are these routered channels, also 3/8”? And how accurate is the 3/8” measurement? I am thinking that Italy manufacturing would have been on the metric system back then. Can you measure them in millimeters? Also what purpose do these routered cavities serve is the one near the muzzle end of the stock for the bayonet lug to slide into?

Thanks for the questions Charles. I was concerned that I hadn't been very clear about the routered "cavities" in the bottom of the barrel channel, but you apparently have been able to understand......

The two cavities are both 3/8 inches wide and 3/8 inches deep.  Using my digital caliper to measure, they are precisely 10.3mm wide and 10.45mm deep.  The 4 inch long cavity midpoint lies 8 inches back from the front of the wood stock.   And the midpoint of the 2 1/8" long cavity lies 4 1/4 inches to the rear of the front of the stock. 


what purpose do these routered cavities serve--- is the one near the muzzle end of the stock for the bayonet lug to slide into?

I'd guess that the cavities serve to allow the wood to expand and contract ( heat from the barrel, and changes in humidity and weather conditions) By allowing the stock to expand and contract the pressure on the barrel is minimized...thus the accuracy
 of the rifle isn't effected as it would be if the barrel were in contact with the stock over the entire length of the barrel.

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Re: Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?
« Reply #239 on: August 20, 2021, 07:14:38 PM »