Why are the CT's so obsessed with disproving the innocent Bus and Cab rides?

[Alan Ford]

Hi Vincent....In a nut shell....I believe that Bill Whaley was a big BSer....... He started BSing his fellow cabbies about how he had transported the killer just minutes after he'd shot the President.    It was all BS....  Whaley did in fact transport a young man to 500 N. Beckley but it was NOT Lee Oswald.    He said the man was dressed in a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers.... That was NOT how Lee was dressed.   He never realized that his dispatcher would call the police and notify them that one of the drivers had transported Lee Oswald just minutes after the assassination.

Hmmm... this would make sense of the following from one of Agent Bookhout's interrogation reports:

Oswald stated that it was not exactly true as recently stated by him that he rode a bus from his place of employment to his residence on November 22, 1963. He stated actually he did board a city bus at his place of employment but that after a block or two, due to traffic congestion, he left the bus and rode a city cab to his apartment on North Beckley. He recalled that at the time of getting into the cab, some lady looked in and asked the driver to call her a cab. He stated that he might have made some remarks to the cab driver merely for the purpose of passing the time of day at that time.

Plan A: Put words in Mr Oswald's mouth about a bus ride (the only way of getting him to the rooming house without suspicious help from a car driver, a.k.a. likely confederate)

Collapse of Plan A: 'Sh*t, the timeline won't work-----------traffic!'

Mr Whaley's claims come to their attention

Plan B: Put a volte-face in Mr Oswald's mouth about an aborted bus ride followed by a cab ride (another way of getting him to the rooming house without suspicious help from a car driver, a.k.a. likely confederate)

The above scenario addresses the question that has been asked on this thread: 'Why the heck would the investigators invent a bus 'n' cab ride for Oswald?'

[Alan Ford]

Thanks Richard.

Because I find it difficult to believe Oswald acted alone I am a CTer by default, which I find quite embarrassing as I'm lumped in with the  nutjobs pretending to find the "truth" but who are in fact propping up their fragile egos.

All Warren Gullibles are deluded. Most CTers are deluded. 

[Richard Smith]

Outstanding post Dan. 

Coming from you, we know what that means.

Don't hold your breath on getting any reasoned response.

Not that it would make any difference, response posted.

It has always amazed me how CTers struggle against the bus to nowhere and cab ride.

No struggle required, you failed again.

Imagine the difficulties and risks to the conspirators to fake all this.

What risks?

And why fake both a bus and cab ride?  It makes no sense as a planned event as it achieves nothing from a conspirator's viewpoint but introduces a great deal of complexity.

Who claimed they were planned events, you fail again.

How do they know, for example, which bus and cab are in the area?

Before the fact they didn't so WTF are you babbling about?

How do they convince random bus passengers and a cab driver to lie or at least not to blow the whole story by contradicting it?

Well they blew it, now what?

And on and on.

We know how your ramblings keep coming, week after week.

And that doesn't even get into Oswald himself admitting it.

"it" -- ROFL

So many words without making even a single substantive point.  Not one. Amazing. 

[Walt Cakebread]

You must have missed my earlier post, let me repost it here.

The line of argument that we can just dismiss an eyewitness because of a clothing discrepancy is absurd, from the time we are babies we first learn to recognise faces, like our mothers and fathers and as we continue to age when we first see someone we look at their face to gauge, attractiveness, emotion, etc, as they say, you make a good first impression by smiling and what a person is wearing comes a distant second, our fashion choices don't define who we are.

For example I went shopping at the local corner shop yesterday and I definitely know who served me and if I had to, I could say without reservation that that person was the one who packaged my bread and milk but if I had to recall their clothes then I simply couldn't because I had no reason to remember, much like Whaley who only remembered Oswald's bracelet because he made similar jewellery and seeing Oswald's shiny bracelet was of interest, but otherwise Oswald was just another customer.

In the following image is shown the man wearing BLACK who in and around Port Arthur killed 35 people and many eyewitnesses were face to face with this mass murderer and positively identified him and later this same man admitted to the crime.



These eyewitnesses all positively identified the same man and understandably have differing memories on the clothing colour but if we use the same criteria of throwing out eyewitnesses because of a silly colour discrepancy then we'd still have a mass murderer on the loose. And this highlights the problem with rabid JFKA CT's, outside this single case, they have no real life experience!

Name of Witness: DUTTON Christian Names: James David       brown jacket
Name of Witness: KINGSTON Christian Names: Ian Gregory     green jacket
Name of Witness: BEEKMAN Christian Names: Michael Dean     ski type jacket, blue, orange and a few other colours on it
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Colin Sydney    3/4 length jacket, dark in appearance
Name of Witness: WILLIAMS Christian Names: Iris Emelia     He had on a jacket of some description.
Name of Witness: SARGENT Christian Names: Michael Robert   blue jacket
Name of Witness: RIVIERE Christian Names: John Michael     “High length’ black jacket
Name of Witness: OLSON Christian Names: MARY LEE           I think was green
Name of Witness: LEVER Cristian Names: Coralee Helen       dark jacket
Name of Witness: NASH Christian Names: Carolyn Louise      khaki green jacket or parker type jacket
Name of Witness: BALASKO Christian Names: James            black jacket
Name of Witness: McKENNA Christian Names: Rebecca Kate     ski type jacket which was zipped all the way up. it was either navy, blue or grey.

JohnM

All of the above is irrelevant, Johnny...... Because the fact remains ...Whaley clearly told Mr Ball that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers.

There are two characteristics of the man's clothing that Whaley described that do NOT fit the clothes that Lee Oswald was wearing.   Lee was NOT  wearing a JACKET , he was wearing a dark brown shirt, and his trousers were dark grey.    The man was sitting next to Whaley on the passenger  side of the seat, so Whaley would definitely have gott a good look at the color of the man's trousers....and he told Mr Ball the man's trousers were BLUE.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?

  Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
     all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
     ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
     blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
     brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
     of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
     almost matched the pants.

And as I recall when Whaley viewed the line up he did NOT identify Lee Oswald from looking at his face....I believe whaley said something like , It was easy to ID Oswald, because he was raising hell because he was forced to attend the line up while wearing a Tee shirt and the others in the line up were wearing jackets.     Since I know that you are a bit slow, Johnny, I'll repeat ....Whaley did NOT ID Lee at the line up by loking at his face.

[Walt Cakebread]

Once the bus transfer was in evidence there was no way out of Plan A, so they had to throw in Plan B (Whaley) after the bus ride.

The WC had to suck it up and move on no matter how ludicrous their timeline looked.

 

Hi Otto...    (isn't that Sarge's dog's name in the Beetle Bailey comic)    Just jabbin ya bit.... 

I'm not 100% convinced that Lee was on Cecil Mc Watter's bus or in a CITY cab...... But that's the tale we've been handed and it does seem that Lee told the interrogators that he had boarded a bus but then left it after getting a transfer ( As an aside.... Spies are taught to obtain some irrefutable proof that verifies their whereabouts at a particular time. ....and  bus transfer would certainly be a good item to verify a person's location at a particular time.)     Someone could have slipped Lee that transfer under the guise of providing him with an alibi ( to cover up the fact that he had been transported to Oakcliff by a private vehicle. )    You may recall that Roger Craig  swore that he saw a man who looked like Lee Oswald run down the slope on the north side of Elm street and climb into a light colored Rambler station wagon with a luggage rack on the roof.

The US government had contracts with American Motors to produce vehicles for the US government.   AMC produced thousands of light colored ( usually light green) Ramblers for Uncle Sam.   

This idea has nagged me for years.....  Maybe Roger Craig was right.....

 

[Jerry Organ]

All of the above is irrelevant, Johnny...... Because the fact remains ...Whaley clearly told Mr Ball that his passenger was wearing a BLUE JACKET and BLUE trousers.

There are two characteristics of the man's clothing that Whaley described that do NOT fit the clothes that Lee Oswald was wearing.   Lee was NOT  wearing a JACKET , he was wearing a dark brown shirt, and his trousers were dark grey.    The man was sitting next to Whaley on the passenger  side of the seat, so Whaley would definitely have gott a good look at the color of the man's trousers....and he told Mr Ball the man's trousers were BLUE.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?

  Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn’t pay much attention to it right then. But it
     all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just
     ordinary work clothes. It wasn’t khaki pants but they were khaki material,
     blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a
     brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind
     of jacket, I didn’t notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that
     almost matched the pants.

You didn't mention Whaley was describing the man's clothes from a block away.

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, there was no one at the Greyhound stand and when I unloaded at the door I just pulled up about 30 feet to the stand and stopped and then I wanted a package of cigarettes, I was out so I started to get out and I saw this passenger coming so I waited for him.
Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street?
Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street.
Mr. BALL. What street was he walking down?
Mr. WHALEY. Lamar.
Mr. BALL. Would that mean he was walking south on Lamar?
Mr. WHALEY. He was walking south on Lamar from Commerce when I saw him.
Mr. BALL. That would be on which side of the street?
Mr. WHALEY. The west side of the street.
Mr. BALL. South on Lamar?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.
Now it's important what Whaley saw about the man's clothing when he was near him: "Yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm. It looked like an identification bracelet. Just shiny, you know, how you see anything shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny, you notice things like that." and ...



Mr. BALL. I have some clothing here. Commission Exhibit No. 150, does that look like the shirt?
Mr. WHALEY. That is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it.
Mr. BALL. In other words, this is the shirt the man had on?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is the same one the FBI man had me identify.
Mr. BALL. This is the shirt the man had on who took your car at Lamar and Jackson?
Mr. WHALEY. As near as I can recollect as I told him. I said that is the shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it, light-colored stripe. I noticed that.

Mr. WHALEY. I am not sure about the pants. I wouldn't be sure of the shirt if it hadn't had that light stripe in it. I just noticed that.


Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.
Mr. WHALEY. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.
Mr. BALL. Look something like it?
And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he had on?
Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one.

Whaley seems pretty unsure on that point. Remember his earlier comments didn't include the "jacket". Here he seems to be calling the shirt a "jacket":

Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.

[Dan O'meara]

Once the bus transfer was in evidence there was no way out of Plan A, so they had to throw in Plan B (Whaley) after the bus ride.

The WC had to suck it up and move on no matter how ludicrous their timeline looked.

 

The WC timeline is guesswork.
They don't know how quickly Oswald was moving or how long he was on the bus for etc.
They're just guessing.
Whaley is also guessing when he fills in the times on his manifest. One look at the times he fills in tells you that.
All the times end in a 5 or a 0 and many of them are done in 15 minutes blocks no matter how long the trip took.
This is all there in his manifest.
Do you believe those times are accurate? (of course you do)

So now you've invented the BusCab Hoax and are touting it as if its a real thing. Yet you don't have to prove anything about it.
But who invented the Hoax?
How many people are involved in it?
How did they choose McWatters and Whaley?
What about Whaley's superiors?
What about the old lady who tried to get in the cab? Couldn't she be traced?
What about the witnesses on the bus? Are they in on it?

But here's the one question you should answer if you're going to answer any about your invention -

Why create the BusCab Hoax in the first place?

[Walt Cakebread]

The WC timeline is guesswork.
They don't know how quickly Oswald was moving or how long he was on the bus for etc.
They're just guessing.
Whaley is also guessing when he fills in the times on his manifest. One look at the times he fills in tells you that.
All the times end in a 5 or a 0 and many of them are done in 15 minutes blocks no matter how long the trip took.
This is all there in his manifest.
Do you believe those times are accurate? (of course you do)

So now you've invented the BusCab Hoax and are touting it as if its a real thing. Yet you don't have to prove anything about it.
But who invented the Hoax?
How many people are involved in it?
How did they choose McWatters and Whaley?
What about Whaley's superiors?
What about the old lady who tried to get in the cab? Couldn't she be traced?
What about the witnesses on the bus? Are they in on it?

But here's the one question you should answer if you're going to answer any about your invention -

Why create the BusCab Hoax in the first place?

Why create the BusCab Hoax in the first place?

Let's pretend....  That Lee thought that he was participating in a hoax that was intended to make it appear that he had fired at JFK.    Let's say that the conspirators who were playing him for a sucker told him that they would have a Light colored Rambler Station wagon ready to pick him up and whisk him away from the scene of the ATTEMPTED assassination.    And if you believe Roger Craig,  that's exactly what happened....

The conspirators certainly would not have wanted to be connected to their patsy, Lee Oswald, and witnesses with cameras could easily have recorded Lee's departure in that US government Rambler Station Wagon ....Thus they would have been prepared to provide an alternate means for the patsy to have left the scene.     And the patsy would have played along with that ruse......

I have a question that has bugged me for years....   Roger Craig said that he heard a sharp loud whistle just before the young man ran down the slope and jumped into the light colored Rambler.

My Question:...    Was Lee in the habit of whistling to get someone's attention.   Many men ( and some women) are very good at producing a shrill blast when they want to get somebody's attention.....  Was Lee Oswald one of those people?