Oswald: No power lunch

[Alan Ford]

No sign of Baker according to Molina, destroys any hope of Baker/Truly making it to the lunchroom in 90 seconds.....

What destroys any hope of their making it to the lunchroom is Officer Baker's same-day affidavit

[Alan Ford]

BTW
Calvary was stood at the bottom of the steps when Truly ran up them.
She was telling Lovelady what had happened.

Correct! 

So Mr Lovelady lied to the WC about where he was when he saw Officer Baker and Mr Truly heading for the front door.

And Mr Shelley told one story involving Ms Calvary in his same-day affidavit, a very different one to the WC.

The question is-------------------why?

When she entered the building Molina had moved into the lobby.

Only after he left the front of the building, went west and reentered by the side door. (Read his HSCA interview!)

[Alan Ford]

How so, Mr Nessan?

This should be fun............

Bumped for Mr Nessan, who made the hilariously ill-informed claim that "Davis and Molina prove she (i.e. Ms Vicki Adams, A.F.) left later than she thought"!

 

[Dan O'meara]

And who does Mr O'Meara think was the man Officer Baker caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up?

I think this is a slightly garbled memory of an encounter with Oswald.
Ignoring your assassination team nonsense, the only other white male who might be on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting is Jack Dougherty, a possibility that cannot be ruled out if someone is inclined to go down the "everything is a hoax" path.

The actual evidence----------Officer Baker's same-day affidavit, during the writing of which Mr Oswald was brought in in front of Officer Baker---------tells us that Officer Baker did not make any firm connection between the man caught walking away from the rear stairway and the suspect just brought in.

Yes Alan, the actual evidence.
In his report, Marvin Johnson states that Baker immediately identified Oswald. Get over it.
Why wasn't Oswald in Baker's affidavit? In the same report Johnson tells us he took Baker's affidavit and it was only 'later' he identified Oswald:

"Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas Book Depository."

This makes sense of why Baker didn't put this identification of Oswald in his affidavit. The confusion arises from this passage in Johnson's report:

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."

This gives the distinct impression that it is at the same time as Baker is actually giving the affidavit that he identifies Oswald. This is in distinct contrast with Johnson's earlier observation that Baker had given his affidavit and it was 'later' that Baker identified Oswald. So, which is it? The fact Oswald isn't mentioned in Baker's affidavit supports the latter assertion, that Baker identified Oswald 'later'.
To resolve this point it would be helpful to know what time Oswald was taken in to talk to the Secret Service men.
[/quote]

The fact that Officer Baker was not brought to a lineup only makes things worse for your silly claim! 

I'm not aware of any law enforcement official being called into a line-up. I was under the impression this was something civilians did

No, during-the-fact corroboration would do the trick-----------------if Officer Baker confidently identified the suspect just brought in as the man he caught walking away from the rear stairway, Det. Johnson would have made sure this all-important fact made it into the affidavit. At the very, very least, Officer Baker would have been brought to a lineup. None of this happened

See above regarding your confusion on this issue.

[Dan O'meara]

Correct! 

So Mr Lovelady lied to the WC about where he was when he saw Officer Baker and Mr Truly heading for the front door.

And Mr Shelley told one story involving Ms Calvary in his same-day affidavit, a very different one to the WC.

The question is-------------------why?

Both Lovelady and Shelley tell the same lie regarding how long it took Gloria Calvery to reach the TSBD - 3 minutes. This is an unmitigated lie, not a "misrememberence" or a misunderstanding. It is also a coordinated lie, with both men trying to introduce the same falsehood into the narrative. They both tell a similar, coordinated "lie of omission" in their same day affidavits, both men conveniently forgetting to mention they went down towards the railroad tracks, observed what was going on, then entered the TSBD through the west door. Both men give the very distinct impression that immediately after the assassination they re-enter the TSBD through the front door.
In one instance they are trying to erase that they entered through the west door, in another they are trying to put this event later than it actually happened.
My question is - what is going on around the west door.

Only after he left the front of the building, went west and reentered by the side door. (Read his HSCA interview!)

Incorrect.
In his HSCA interview Molina states he stays on the steps "for awhile", then goes towards the grassy knoll then re-enters the TSBD through the red gates on the extension of Elm Street on the south side of the building (not the west door). In the main working area of the first floor he encounters O V Campbell and they are talking until Forest Sorrells interupts.
It doesn't make sense that he then encounters a still-hysterical Calvery in the lobby.
It makes more sense that, after telling Lovelady what has happened, Calvery makes her way into the building passing Molina who is outside the glass doors. Molina steps inside and talks to Calvery and it is this brief conversation that prompts him to go towards the grassy knoll.

[Walt Cakebread]

I think this is a slightly garbled memory of an encounter with Oswald.
Ignoring your assassination team nonsense, the only other white male who might be on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting is Jack Dougherty, a possibility that cannot be ruled out if someone is inclined to go down the "everything is a hoax" path.

Yes Alan, the actual evidence.
In his report, Marvin Johnson states that Baker immediately identified Oswald. Get over it.
Why wasn't Oswald in Baker's affidavit? In the same report Johnson tells us he took Baker's affidavit and it was only 'later' he identified Oswald:

"Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas Book Depository."

This makes sense of why Baker didn't put this identification of Oswald in his affidavit. The confusion arises from this passage in Johnson's report:

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."

This gives the distinct impression that it is at the same time as Baker is actually giving the affidavit that he identifies Oswald. This is in distinct contrast with Johnson's earlier observation that Baker had given his affidavit and it was 'later' that Baker identified Oswald. So, which is it? The fact Oswald isn't mentioned in Baker's affidavit supports the latter assertion, that Baker identified Oswald 'later'.
To resolve this point it would be helpful to know what time Oswald was taken in to talk to the Secret Service men.


I'm not aware of any law enforcement official being called into a line-up. I was under the impression this was something civilians did

See above regarding your confusion on this issue.

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."


There's a couple of problems with Marvin Johnson's statement....  It's an accepted fact that Baker encountered Lee Oswald at about 12:31 in the second floor lunchroom , but detective Johnson says that Baker said that he encountered Lee on the FOURTH FLOOR   

The other problem with detective Johnson's statement is the fact that there were no secret service men who wanted to talk to Lee Oswald that day.    Captain Fritz was the only interrogator and there were no Secret Service men present on 11-22-63.

[Dan O'meara]

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."


There's a couple of problems with Marvin Johnson's statement....  It's an accepted fact that Baker encountered Lee Oswald at about 12:31 in the second floor lunchroom , but detective Johnson says that Baker said that he encountered Lee on the FOURTH FLOOR   

That's why I referred to the "garbled" recollection of a man unfamiliar with the TSBD, gun drawn, adrenaline pumping. In his affidavit Baker says third or fourth floor, hinting at his uncertainty

The other problem with detective Johnson's statement is the fact that there were no secret service men who wanted to talk to Lee Oswald that day.    Captain Fritz was the only interrogator and there were no Secret Service men present on 11-22-63.

This, if correct, is an important point.
Oswald was brought in around 2:00 pm but Johnson wasn't in police HQ until around 3:00PM, so Baker couldn't have given his affidavit until after 3:00 PM.
Where was Oswald being moved to when Baker saw him?

[Walt Cakebread]

That's why I referred to the "garbled" recollection of a man unfamiliar with the TSBD, gun drawn, adrenaline pumping. In his affidavit Baker says third or fourth floor, hinting at his uncertainty

This, if correct, is an important point.
Oswald was brought in around 2:00 pm but Johnson wasn't in police HQ until around 3:00PM, so Baker couldn't have given his affidavit until after 3:00 PM.
Where was Oswald being moved to when Baker saw him?

I believe that it was around 5:00 pm ( possibly later) when Baker was asked to give his affidavit.  Baker didn't realize that he may have encountered the assassin in his dash to the roof of the TSBD.   But  Roy Truly  had told Fritz that Baker had encountered the assassin ( Truly's statement was the opening gun at the framing of Lee Oswald)  when he and Baker dashed through the building just seconds after the shots were  fired.  Thus Fritz asked Baker to give an affidavit covering his dash through the TSBD with Roy Truly.  The only suspicious person that came to Baker's mind was the the 5'9" . 165 pound , man with DARK hair who was wearing a light brown jacket and sneaking away from the stairs as Baker emerged from the stairwell on an upper floor.