Oswald: No power lunch

[John Mytton]

Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says that after coming down from the fourth floor she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time.





JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.
And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time.





JohnM

And there he is again, the guy who says he doesn't want to debate me, is desperately trying to debate me again. Go figure!

Two important considerations that MUST be taken into account when inventing timelines is firstly Victoria Adams who was actually there and her signed and corrected testimony where she says she encountered Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor.

And we should, of course, ignore completely that the preponderance of actual facts (now there's a novel concept for you!) show it was physically impossible for Adams (and Styles) to see Shelley and Lovelady (who both didn't see the women) less than a minute before Styles reentered the building at the front entrance, after walking around three sides of the building.

Biased propagandists peddle and perpetuate lies they have blindly accepted. Serious people looking at this try to determine what is logical, physically possible and fits the rest of the known facts..... 

And Secondly we must acknowledge members here who claim an event that happened a little over half an hour later, have posted that the Police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time.

For anybody who doesn't follow what goes on on this forum; what Johnny is trying to do here is using misrepresentation of the facts in a vain attempt to discredit/attack the messenger. So all you really need to do is ask yourself why he is attacking the messenger instead of actually debating the known facts. The answer will tell you all you need to know!

Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has claimed or posted that police tapes can be up to 10 minutes off real time. I do, however, remember a man named Bowles, who happened to be in charge of the DPD dispatchers, telling the HSCA that the time stamps called out by the dispatchers are not real time, which by itself calls into question the credibility of the DPD recordings/transcripts. Does that help?

The one thing that should really be considered is the fact that in his entire post John Mytton does not address in detail any of the more than obvious problems with the official narrative re Victoria Adams. Just like he always does, he stays on the surface of the official narrative, which tells me that he clearly understands that as soon as he starts digging deeper his favorite fairytale starts falling apart.

Kinda strange, don't you think? If somebody is so convinced that his version of events is the truth, then why is he so afraid to enter into a discussion about it, to the extent that he is even running from answering simple questions. Says it all, really....

Let's see if Johnny can now answer the two questions he has been running from for days;

Care to explain to me how Adams and Styles could have seen Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs, when both men were not even back in the building until at least 5 minutes after the shots?

Or, alternatively, if you are going to claim that Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th floor until several minutes after the shots, how can Dorothy Garner say that they went down before Baker and Truly came up?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Within say 3 minutes after the shots Officer Barnett ran 20 ft past the TSBD so that he could watch the north side of the TSBD & the fire escape.
Within 2 minutes after the shots (actually probly 80 sec) Victoria Adams & Sandra Styles exited the TSBD via the Houston loading dock & went southwest towards the picket fence railyard to see what had happened. When they got near the railyard they were sent back by an Officer. Barnett didn’t see Adams & Styles exit the loading dock koz he arrived after.  Styles said that they went to the elevator before going to the back stairs, but i have not shown that detour to the elevator in my drawing.
Romack was probly only about 30 yd from Barnett, & he mentioned seeing Barnett, but Romack didn’t ever mention Adams & Styles.
Rackley was say 100 yd away, & he never mentioned Adams & Styles, nor Barnett, nor Worrell (or some guy).  However he stood there for only 5 or 10 minutes, hence he might have left before Worrell (or some guy) did a runner.   
Lee, a workmate of Romack, was standing with Rackley for a while, but we dont know what Lee saw or didn't saw.

Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as  Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.  Garner (who was by then watching the bedlam in the railyard carpark by looking out of a western window near the stairs) saw Baker & Truly go up the stairs past after Adams & Styles had already gone down the stairs.   

Adams & Styles said that they did not hear Oswald coming down the stairs behind them. CTers use that to claim that Oswald had not come down the stairs at all, but they are wrong, Oswald came down the stairs 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. When Oswald got to the 2nd floor he heard Adams & Styles klopping down the stairs & he ducked into the lunch room.  After they had passed Oswald heard Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs (or he heard Truly yelling up the elevator shaft) & he ducked into the lunchroom for a second time. Later he got a coke & walked throo the 2nd floor office of Jeraldean Reid (instead of using the corridor) & he went down the front stairs & exited the front doors.

Oswald left his jacket in the Domino Room on the first floor. Praps he forgot, or more likely he didn't want to walk throo police on the first floor to get to the Domino Room which was adjacent to the Houston loading dock, the jacket was on the window sill.  Oswald walked north up Houston to get his jacket, did a U-turn when he saw Officer Barnett, & walked south down Houston (Buell Frazier saw him), after which Oswald crossed Houston & then Elm.

Hoffman, 382 yd away (from Barnett), on the Stemmons overpass, said he saw 2 men running out of the rear of the TSBD & up along the railway & then east, but he didn't mention Adams & Styles.
What he called the rear might have been the angled western side TSBD extension where there was a loading dock & carport & 2 pedestrian doors.
Romack & Rackley might not have seen the 2 doors if there was a carriage parked next to the TSBD (ie as in this pix), but they would have seen the 2 men when they were running along the railway, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.
And Adams & Styles would have seen the 2 men, & they might even have had to get out of their way.
Adams & Styles would have been 320 yd from Hoffman as they walked along the angled 70 yd length of the 2 loading docks (& carport), yet Hoffman didn't mention seeing Adams & Styles.
At a later date Hoffman changed his story (re the 2 men), he now claimed that he saw a shooter & accomplice at the picket fence near the triple underpass.
In one version one of the guys runs north along a railway, in another version both guys run along the railway.
Romack & Rackley would have been able to see much of that, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.

Sam Pate & Josh Dowdell jnr arrived via roadworks in a radio car 4 minutes after the shots. Romack moved a barricade to let Pate drive to near the TSBD.
They parked there untill Tippit was shot.  About 5 or 10 minutes after they got there Pate saw a young guy, possibly James Richard Worrell, run along the TSBD & then cross Houston & then go east along the railway (but Dowdell did not recall that). And Romack too did not recall seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack watched closely for only about another 4 minutes after Pate got there. Romack stayed in that area until Pate left, but he did not bother to watch closely after lots of police moved in, so praps he missed seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack seems to have missed seeing Adams & Styles too.  Rackley might have exited the truck yard before Worrell (or some guy) did his runner (he stood in the truck yard for only 5 to 10 minutes).

[Martin Weidmann]

Within say 3 minutes after the shots Officer Barnett ran 20 ft past the TSBD so that he could watch the north side of the TSBD & the fire escape.
Within 2 minutes after the shots (actually probly 80 sec) Victoria Adams & Sandra Styles exited the TSBD via the Houston loading dock & went southwest towards the picket fence railyard to see what had happened. When they got near the railyard they were sent back by an Officer. Barnett didn’t see Adams & Styles exit the loading dock koz he arrived after.  Styles said that they went to the elevator before going to the back stairs, but i have not shown that detour to the elevator in my drawing.
Romack was probly only about 30 yd from Barnett, & he mentioned seeing Barnett, but Romack didn’t ever mention Adams & Styles.
Rackley was say 100 yd away, & he never mentioned Adams & Styles, nor Barnett, nor Worrell (or some guy).  However he stood there for only 5 or 10 minutes, hence he might have left before Worrell (or some guy) did a runner.   
Lee, a workmate of Romack, was standing with Rackley for a while, but we dont know what Lee saw or didn't saw.

Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as  Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.  Garner (who was by then watching the bedlam in the railyard carpark by looking out of a western window near the stairs) saw Baker & Truly go up the stairs past after Adams & Styles had already gone down the stairs.   

Adams & Styles said that they did not hear Oswald coming down the stairs behind them. CTers use that to claim that Oswald had not come down the stairs at all, but they are wrong, Oswald came down the stairs 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. When Oswald got to the 2nd floor he heard Adams & Styles klopping down the stairs & he ducked into the lunch room.  After they had passed Oswald heard Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs (or he heard Truly yelling up the elevator shaft) & he ducked into the lunchroom for a second time. Later he got a coke & walked throo the 2nd floor office of Jeraldean Reid (instead of using the corridor) & he went down the front stairs & exited the front doors.

Oswald left his jacket in the Domino Room on the first floor. Praps he forgot, or more likely he didn't want to walk throo police on the first floor to get to the Domino Room which was adjacent to the Houston loading dock, the jacket was on the window sill.  Oswald walked north up Houston to get his jacket, did a U-turn when he saw Officer Barnett, & walked south down Houston (Buell Frazier saw him), after which Oswald crossed Houston & then Elm.

Hoffman, 382 yd away (from Barnett), on the Stemmons overpass, said he saw 2 men running out of the rear of the TSBD & up along the railway & then east, but he didn't mention Adams & Styles.
What he called the rear might have been the angled western side TSBD extension where there was a loading dock & carport & 2 pedestrian doors.
Romack & Rackley might not have seen the 2 doors if there was a carriage parked next to the TSBD (ie as in this pix), but they would have seen the 2 men when they were running along the railway, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.
And Adams & Styles would have seen the 2 men, & they might even have had to get out of their way.
Adams & Styles would have been 320 yd from Hoffman as they walked along the angled 70 yd length of the 2 loading docks (& carport), yet Hoffman didn't mention seeing Adams & Styles.
At a later date Hoffman changed his story (re the 2 men), he now claimed that he saw a shooter & accomplice at the picket fence near the triple underpass.
In one version one of the guys runs north along a railway, in another version both guys run along the railway.
Romack & Rackley would have been able to see much of that, depending on how many carriages were parked in the railyard.

Sam Pate & Josh Dowdell jnr arrived via roadworks in a radio car 4 minutes after the shots. Romack moved a barricade to let Pate drive to near the TSBD.
They parked there untill Tippit was shot.  About 5 or 10 minutes after they got there Pate saw a young guy, possibly James Richard Worrell, run along the TSBD & then cross Houston & then go east along the railway (but Dowdell did not recall that). And Romack too did not recall seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack watched closely for only about another 4 minutes after Pate got there. Romack stayed in that area until Pate left, but he did not bother to watch closely after lots of police moved in, so praps he missed seeing Worrell (or some guy). Romack seems to have missed seeing Adams & Styles too.  Rackley might have exited the truck yard before Worrell (or some guy) did his runner (he stood in the truck yard for only 5 to 10 minutes).

Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as  Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.

This alone destroys your theory. There is no way that Baker and Truly needed 80 seconds to enter the building at the front entrance.

[John Mytton]

I guess Martin loves his "timelines." Right off, I see a problem with this one. Adams testified that when she reached the first floor, she saw Lovelady and Shelly enter the building through a door on the north side of the building. She also said she didn't see Oswald coming down, nor Baker/Truly going up.

Shelley and Lovelady, for their part, recalled a their circuitous path to the rear of the TSBD as follows:

1.) At the last shot sounded, they were standing in the TSBD entryway. They remained there until Gloria Calvery ran up and announced that JFK had been shot. Lovelady estimated that this was about 3 minutes after the shots. It couldn't have been near much of a delay: Loevelady said that he saw Baker headed into the TSBD as he was moving towards the west end of Old Elm.
2.) Shelley and Lovelady then crossed the street in front of the Depository (not Elm street, but the the stub of Old Elm that leads to the parking lot on the GK)
3.) They then turned west and went to the edge of the rail yards
4.) After watching the activity going on in in that area, Lovelady and Shelley then went back to the TSBD and re-entered the building through a back door. Lovelady testified that, when he entered the building, he saw one of the Scott-Foresman girls. He thought it was Adams, but wasn't sure.

Even if Lovelady was off as to the initial delay before he and Shelley took off to the west, all of that movement took a while. Further, He saw Baker headed into the building as he and Shelley were running away from it.
 
When you put all of this together, Adams and Styles have reached the first floor after Baker and Truly passed  by going up. And after Oswald had made it to the lunch room on the second floor.

Adams also testified that, after she had circled around the outside of the TSBD, she heard a broadcast on a police motorcycle radio "said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window". She said that this news concerned her, since she had been "at the only open window on the fourth floor." On the DPD recordings, the second floor isn't identified as a possible shooting location until 12:38, and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40 (both transmissions on channel two, BTW).
 

and the 4th floor isn't mentioned until 12:40

Thanks Mitch, the most relevant piece of evidence re the time Victoria Adams listened to the Police Radio was when she "panicked" after hearing that the shots apparently came from the fourth floor. After running down the stairs and running to the railroad tracks and quickly moving to the front of the building she "paused there to listen to the report on the police radio" and "listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired" which is a definite time stamp and 12:40 is more than sufficient for a Lovelady/Shelley sighting.


Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Miss ADAMS - ..... There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

Btw on the McAdams Police Tape Transcript page the earliest 4th floor reference on either channel that I could find was 12:45.


https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Thanks Mitch, the most relevant piece of evidence re the time Victoria Adams listened to the Police Radio was when she "panicked" after hearing that the shots apparently came from the fourth floor. After running down the stairs and running to the railroad tracks and quickly moving to the front of the building she "paused there to listen to the report on the police radio" and "listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired" which is a definite time stamp and 12:40 is more than sufficient for a Lovelady/Shelley sighting.


Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Miss ADAMS - ..... There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

Btw on the McAdams Police Tape Transcript page the earliest 4th floor reference on either channel that I could find was 12:45.


https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

JohnM

None of this is of any significance. Sandra Styles and Victoria Adams arrived together at the front entrance. Styles went inside straight away and wasn't stopped, which means she entered prior to the building being sealed off (at 12:36 or 12:37)

Adams testified;

Mr. BELIN - You went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building?
Miss ADAMS - Well, I didn't go back in right away.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then? There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the freeway. Did you go back either of those streets?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
And she said, "I don't know."
And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.
There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---
Mr. BELIN - Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?
Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

The fact that Adams did not enter the building straight away tells you nothing about the time she and Styles arrived at the front of the building.

Adams simply decided to stay outside longer than Styles. The mere fact that Styles entered the building without being stopped not only justifies the conclusion that the girls arrived at the front entrance before it was sealed off (at 12:36 or 12:37) but also completely destroys your fake suggestion that Adams didn't arrive at the front entrance before 12:40.

Stop showing us just how little you know about the actual facts of this case! Your desperate attempts to defend the indefensible are going nowhere.

Btw, why am I not surprised that you ignored my previous post (which completely destroyed your arguments) and moved on to another, without - still - not answering my questions. Your weakness is getting more and more exposed!

This superficial stuff is really the "best" you've got, isn't it.... 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Adams & Styles, who had been looking out of a 4th floor window, with Elsie Dorman & Dorothy Garner, ran down the TSBD stairway about 10 sec after Oswald, & they exited the first floor into the Houston loading dock at 80 sec at about the same time as  Baker & Truly entered via the front Elm St door.

This alone destroys your theory. There is no way that Baker and Truly needed 80 seconds to enter the building at the front entrance.

Nope. My theory can accommodate Truly & Baker entering the first floor storeroom at say 75 sec after the shots to say 85 sec.

[Martin Weidmann]

Nope. My theory can accommodate Truly & Baker entering the first floor storeroom at say 75 sec after the shots to say 85 sec.

Rather than just making that claim, why don't you just show us?