Says Molina. "So I then came back into the building, not through the front door, but through -- there's some red gates further on this side of the building and I went in through there and went into the workroom area of the first floor"
"this side of the building" juxtposed with "the front door" = the front of the building.
This image has already been posted in this thread, but maybe you missed it. Please tell me where the gates are.
You're a funny man, Mr Weidmann. You're also about the last guy around here who needs to be throwing out that accusation.
You have some funny ideas about the word "assumption"
Avery says she didn't know what had happened until she saw a policeman running "in the direction of the President's car." The statement implies that he was the first policeman she saw running in that direction after the shooting. Joe Marshall Smith said he ran from his position on the East side of the Elm/Houston towards the GK. You can see him do so at the beginning of the Couch film, as I've already mentioned. He ran down the sidewalk next to and directly in front of the TSBD entrance...literally only feet from the TSBD steps. That is, directly in front of Avery. Of the three officers who were stationed at the corner of Elm and Main, he was the only one whose movements after the shooting match what Avery described.
And if he wasn't the first officer who Avery saw going in that direction, then Mr Ford has an even bigger problem, since this would take Avery back into the TSBD that much faster.
I didn't assume what Avery said. I didn't assume what Joe Smith said. I didn't assume what EL Smith and Welcome Barnett said that they didn't do. That comes from their statements and testimonies. The cop running West down Old Elm in the Couch film has to be Joe Smith, by simple elimination. The Couch film, in turn, gives us a good idea of how soon after the assassination that Avery would have seen Smith whiz by.
I also didn't assume that Adams and Styles delayed their departure from the SF&C office window on the 4th floor. That is what they've said. I did not assume their path from said window to the front of the TSBD -- I used what they have stated. It's no assumption the length of their path from the 4th floor window to the front of the TSBD is far, far longer than the 15 feet forwards, 15 feet back, and 15 feet to the door Avery says she travelled.
And no assumption is required, once you put all of this together, to realize that a literal reading of Avery's statement leads directly to a situation where she would have been back in the building well before Adams and Styles made it to the area near the front door.
I know that the reason is that I only have so much time to do this, and your posts are full of weird accusations and misstatements where I have to go back, double check, then come in and correct what you've mangled. It takes time to do that. For example, you didn't know about the gate at the front of the TSBD?
IIRC, neither one said they left immediately, especially in the sense that you want to believe. Adams testified that it was 15-30 seconds. Styles said it was 1-2 minutes from what I recall. You can't even get your star witnesses right without misrepresenting them.
It's a sign that I find Mr Ford's arguments tediously lightweight and insubstantial. Also, he appears to be lacking fairly basic reading skills and logical skills. As I said, I chalk it up to his "who cares" attitude. As for you, I keep noticing that you like to unilaterally declare yourself the victor. This habit says far more about you than it does those you like to pretend you've vanquished. And it implies that there's a large delta between where you put yourself in this world versus the place you really occupy.
You have some funny ideas about the word "assumption"Really?
Avery says she didn't know what had happened until she saw a policeman running "in the direction of the President's car." The statement implies that he was the first policeman she saw running in that direction after the shooting. Joe Marshall Smith said he ran from his position on the East side of the Elm/Houston towards the GK. Davis' statement does not imply anything. All she said was that she saw a policeman "running in the direction of the President's car". Everything else is your imagination, just like it was when you incorrectly assumed that Adams was told to return to the building by an officer who was part of the lock down team and completely ignored there were already police officers in the railway yard within less than a minute after the shots.
The cop running West down Old Elm in the Couch film has to be Joe Smith, by simple elimination. "Has to be"?... Now there's an assumption, if I ever saw one!
But let's say, for the sake of argument that you are right. Previously you said;
She said that she didn't realize the President had been shot at until she saw a policeman run past, which describes Joe Smith's dash along the front of the TSBD; Smith is seen in the Couch film running past the red gates about 30 seconds after the last shot. She then moves forward with the crowd, but after 15 feet she turns back and goes back into the building. It doesn't take long to get carried 15 feet with the crowd, and it doesn't take long to walk back through the door..which wasn't far, since she'd started on the front steps. That is, if you take her statement literally.
When Smith passed Davis, Adams and Styles were yet to reach the stairwy (per Adams) or had yet to leave (per Styles). They wouldn't have made it down stairs, out the back door, all the way around the building, and back to the front door in thetime it would take Davis to travel 15 feet forwards from the front steps, then backwards through the door. If you take the statement literally.
I'm not sure what the point is that you are trying to make, but if it is that Davis was already back in the building by the time Adams and Styles reached the front of the TSBD, then you need to explain how Adams could have seen Davis, which of course you can't!
In fact, in the real world, all this actually means is that Davis did indeed re-enter the building shortly after the shots and that Adams saw her prior to that, which clearly suggests that Adams and Styles must have left the 4th floor immediately after the last shot! There is no other explanation. If, as you claimed previously, Adams and Styles did not leave the 4th floor until well after 12:36 (I'm paraphrasing) than Davis, as a consequence, would have had to stay outside the building until at least 12:39, which, in any other place than your alternate reality, is clearing not the case.
I also didn't assume that Adams and Styles delayed their departure from the SF&C office window on the 4th floor. That is what they've said.It's not only an assumption, it's also simply not true. Styles may have been ambivalent in her statements but Adams has been nothing but consistent. Also an early departure from the 4th floor matches all the other known details, a late departure, like the one you advocate, doesn't.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately
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Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Prior to her testimony, Adams told the investigators;
On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;
"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"
On 02/17/64 she told Jim Leavelle;
"After the third shot I went out the back door" and "The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs"
and on 03/23/64 she told the FBI
"After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away. Sandra Styles and I then ran out of the building via the stairs"
In all these statements, Adams is perfectly consistent in saying that she and Styles ran to the stairs after the third shot
And Sandra Styles backs her up. In her statement to the FBI of 03/23/64 she said;
"I heard shots but thought at the time that they were fireworks. I was unaware of the place the shots came from. I saw people running and others lie down on the ground and realized something was happening but did not know exactly what was happening. Victoria Adams and I left the office at this time, went down the back stairs and left the building at the back door.
And then of course there is Dorothy Garner who, according to Martha Stroud, said she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls (Adams and Styles) had gone down. Garner explained to Barry Ernest that she did not actually see the girls go down, but she could hear them on the noisy stairs.
I know that the reason is that I only have so much time to do this, and your posts are full of weird accusations and misstatements where I have to go back, double check, then come in and correct what you've mangled. It takes time to do that. Yeah right.... and you still get it wrong time after time... and you have the time to reply to others, go figure.
For example, you didn't know about the gate at the front of the TSBD? Of course I know about the gate between the TSBD and the annex building, which places it
next to the TSBD and not at the front of the TSBD. And that gate does not give access to the TSBD. It gives access to doors on the west side of the building, which is where Molina said he entered. Where Molina was exactly is actually insignificant because whether you place him near the front entrance or near the gates, he's still on the same dead end street running in front of the TSBD and that's where Adams saw him. Period!
IIRC, neither one said they left immediately, especially in the sense that you want to believe. Adams testified that it was 15-30 seconds. Styles said it was 1-2 minutes from what I recall. You can't even get your star witnesses right without misrepresenting them.On 11/24/63 FBI agents Hardin and Scott wrote in their FD 302 report that Adams had said;
"She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs"And talking about misrepresentation; when you completely ignore all the statements Adams made, when you dismiss what Garner told Stroud and when you cherry-pick a statement by Styles, you like, what else are you doing but misrepresenting the evidence?
And, even worse, you keep changing your story. What's up with that? Not so long ago you claimed that Adams and Styles stayed on the 4th floor (I am paraphrasing) until well after 12:36 (when the lock down at the back started, remember?), now you go with a recollection of 1-2 minutes that Styles might have said. You are all over the place. If the women stayed on the 4th floor for 1-2 minutes they would have ran into Truly and Baker and they would be on the 1st floor well before Shelley and Lovelady even entered the building. You really need to start thinking things through before you write this nonsense.
It's a sign that I find Mr Ford's arguments tediously lightweight and insubstantial. Also, he appears to be lacking fairly basic reading skills and logical skills. As I said, I chalk it up to his "who cares" attitude. You might want to take some time out of your busy schedule to look up the meaning of the word "arrogance".
As for you, I keep noticing that you like to unilaterally declare yourself the victor. This habit says far more about you than it does those you like to pretend you've vanquished. And it implies that there's a large delta between where you put yourself in this world versus the place you really occupy. Says the guy on a high horse who makes all sorts of dubious claims, presents assumptions and opinions as "evidence", and is not able to come up with a coherent timeline of his own.
And BTW, pointing out that you are running from a conversation is not the same as declaring myself the victor. That would be a pointless exercise anyway when one deals with a LN who will never agree with anything I say in the first place. The only one who is talking in terms of winning an argument is you, which tells me all I need to know about your mindset. I understood a long time ago that it's practically impossible to persuade a LN of anything, so trying to "win an argument" would be (and still is) a complete waste of time.
Like it or not, the bottom line is that Adams saw Molina and Davis;
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?
Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"
So far, you have failed miserably (once again) to demonstrate that Molina and Davis stayed outside the building substantially longer than they said. Your assumption that they did is meaningless!
