Perception of Reality

[Andrew Mason]

Here is a crop of Roberdeau's map showing the relevant area. The red lines that I added indicate the line of sight from the sniper's nest. The blue lines that I added indicate the line of sight from the Dorman window. You also need to consider that the tree (like most trees) gets larger near the lower limbs. Dorman's window is about 20 feet lower than the sniper's nest window, therefore the wider lower limbs affect the Dorman view more than they do the sniper's nest view.



Now, if you still think that Dorman's view wasn't blocked until after z160, I give up. You are completely blind to the truth.

I noticed how the photos all show perfectly circular trees....  And you put Adams looking out the 6th window when the evidence indicates she was primarily looking out the 5th window.  If you were trying to avoid confirmation bias you would put her at the 5th window.....

[Charles Collins]

I noticed how the photos all show perfectly circular trees....  And you put Adams looking out the 6th window when the evidence indicates she was primarily looking out the 5th window.  If you were trying to avoid confirmation bias you would put her at the 5th window.....

I drew the lines from where Roberdeau shows her position. Moving it over a few feet to where you think it belongs isn’t going to change it enough to make much difference. The trees draw on Roberdeau’s map and our 3-D models are not exact replicas of the one in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. But they are close approximations. I think it is close enough for me to conclude that Adams had to be describing the wave that is shown near the end of the Towner film segment and ending at the start of the Zapruder film segment.

[Dan O'meara]

I gave up trying to find it here. But I do remember posting it in another thread. Anyway here is some substantiation for you:

A link to the download page of Dale Myers’ website:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/report_download.html

Either of the PDF files will get you the complete report. Look in the appendix III section for the timeline synchronization of the various films.

Here is a photo showing that the Hughes, Towner, and Dorman films all suddenly stopped about the same time. Tina Towner said she stopped filming on purpose and very shortly thereafter the shot rang out. Her film is the first of the three to stop, then the other two do shortly thereafter.

Substantiation??
Myers reports a letter sent from Hughes to his parents:
"About 5 seconds after I quit taking the pictures we heard the shots..."
How can Hughes be reacting to a shot when the shots didn't start until about 5 seconds after he quit filming??
Towner reports she stopped filming on purpose and the Dorman film stops for 49 frames!! How is that a reflex reaction to hearing a shot?
Could your substantiation be any weaker?

[Dan O'meara]

This is part of Mary Woodward's initial recollection of the shooting:

"We had been waiting about half an hour when the first motorcycle escorts came by, followed shortly by the President’s car. The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us… After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right."

Two things to note:

1)   Both JFK and Jackie turn directly towards where Woodward is standing.
2)   The first shot occurs after JFK has faced forward again.

In the Towner film Jackie is looking off to her left as JFK waves, so Woodward is not referring to this wave.
In the Croft pic (@ z162) Jackie is still looking off to the left.
In the Z-film Jackie does not turn to her right until around z190 just after JFK looks to his right and starts waving. This is clearly the wave Woodward is referring to.
The first shot doesn't occur until JFK looks forward again, after z190.

This cannot be coherently disputed.

[Charles Collins]

Substantiation??
Myers reports a letter sent from Hughes to his parents:
"About 5 seconds after I quit taking the pictures we heard the shots..."
How can Hughes be reacting to a shot when the shots didn't start until about 5 seconds after he quit filming??
Towner reports she stopped filming on purpose and the Dorman film stops for 49 frames!! How is that a reflex reaction to hearing a shot?
Could your substantiation be any weaker?

What substantiation did you ask for? Dale Myers’ information. You have it now thanks to my efforts (not your own efforts). It confirms my claim. There are many conflicting accounts. I give more weight to the accounts that agree with the physical evidence including the photographic record. Many witnesses said that they didn’t initially recognize the first bang as a shot. It appears to me that Hughes was one of them. Yes Towner stopped filming on purpose. I never indicated otherwise. The significance is that she said the first shot sounded within a second or two (if that) after she stopped filming. There is no reason to believe that a long stoppage of 49 frames couldn’t be the result of a shot fired. The fact that there’s a similar one that coincides with the shot around z224 tells me that it simply took her a few seconds to  gain her composure and start filming again. There are a lot of people who practically jump out of their skin at the sound of sudden loud noise. Reactions vary from person to person. Zapruder was able to continue filming during at least two of the shots. But he was much further away from the rifle.

[Charles Collins]

This is part of Mary Woodward's initial recollection of the shooting:

"We had been waiting about half an hour when the first motorcycle escorts came by, followed shortly by the President’s car. The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us… After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right."

Two things to note:

1)   Both JFK and Jackie turn directly towards where Woodward is standing.
2)   The first shot occurs after JFK has faced forward again.

In the Towner film Jackie is looking off to her left as JFK waves, so Woodward is not referring to this wave.
In the Croft pic (@ z162) Jackie is still looking off to the left.
In the Z-film Jackie does not turn to her right until around z190 just after JFK looks to his right and starts waving. This is clearly the wave Woodward is referring to.
The first shot doesn't occur until JFK looks forward again, after z190.

This cannot be coherently disputed.

There is an advantage to having the stationary object (tree) for a reference. There’s no way Adams was referring to the same wave that you believe Woodward was describing. So, conflicting accounts (if one believes in your theory). I give more weight to the Adams account because the tree makes it more precise and less ambiguous.

[Dan O'meara]

What substantiation did you ask for? Dale Myers’ information. You have it now thanks to my efforts (not your own efforts). It confirms my claim. There are many conflicting accounts. I give more weight to the accounts that agree with the physical evidence including the photographic record. Many witnesses said that they didn’t initially recognize the first bang as a shot. It appears to me that Hughes was one of them. Yes Towner stopped filming on purpose. I never indicated otherwise. The significance is that she said the first shot sounded within a second or two (if that) after she stopped filming. There is no reason to believe that a long stoppage of 49 frames couldn’t be the result of a shot fired. The fact that there’s a similar one that coincides with the shot around z224 tells me that it simply took her a few seconds to  gain her composure and start filming again. There are a lot of people who practically jump out of their skin at the sound of sudden loud noise. Reactions vary from person to person. Zapruder was able to continue filming during at least two of the shots. But he was much further away from the rifle.

"It confirms my claim."

Hughes stating that the shots started 5 seconds after he stopped filming confirms your claim that he reacted to a shot during his filming??
Is that supposed to be a joke?

According to the Roberdeau map Hughes is stood well over 300 feet away from the TSBD at the time of the shots yet you still believe the sound of the shot was so loud it caused him to flinch??

There is a fine line between confirmation bias and delusion.

[Dan O'meara]

There is an advantage to having the stationary object (tree) for a reference. There’s no way Adams was referring to the same wave that you believe Woodward was describing. So, conflicting accounts (if one believes in your theory). I give more weight to the Adams account because the tree makes it more precise and less ambiguous.

From Vicki Adams' WC testimony:

Miss ADAMS. I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.

Both Woodward and Adams describe someone calling out to JFK and Jackie and both of them turn in response.

Both Woodward and Adams are describing exactly the same moment.
In both descriptions Jackie turns to her right in response to the call.

You are clearly wrong on this but you have nowhere to go. We are now moving out of the realm of confirmation bias and into flat out denial of the evidence.