Perception of Reality

[Charles Collins]

Right. Like Croft, Betzner and Hughes remembering that their film exposures occurred BEFORE the first shot.Charles, you are simply confirming your own bias.  All Victoria Adams said in her first statement was that she heard 3 shots when the motorcade was passing.  In her WC testimony she said her view of the President's car was obstructed by the tree at the time of the first shot. Since she said she was looking out one of the two windows in the third set of windows from the east side* this means that the oak tree was between the third set of windows from the east corner (4th floor) and the President's car. In other words, it was some distance along Elm St., not anywhere close to z133:


*Dorothy Garner confirms this:  "I know this window to be the fifth window from the east end of the building. I recall that Mrs. Elsie Dorman was sitting next to me at that time looking out the sixth window and that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were both standing next to Mrs. Dorman and myself looking out the fifth and sixth windows".
Fine. That is what they are supposed to do normally. So that means absolutely nothing. But they are all consistent in saying that the first shot occurred when 1. the VP car had just finished the turn (it is still turning when last seen at z180). 2. the VP security car was about to finish the turn (it is pointing north at z180):

Victoria Adams spoke to detective James R. Leavelle of the DPD on 2/17/64. This is part of her statement: "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him, and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot."

Suddenly and very rapidly jerking their heads around from right to the left and back again almost simultaneously is not normal. It’s an indication that something unexpected has happened. I believe that it was the first shot.

Again the difference between your approach and mine is verifiable photographic evidence.

[Dan O'meara]

Our memories can be faulty. However, we tend to remember things by association. And when multiple people’s memories agree about the timing, they tend to corroborate each other. In my opinion, the accounts of Tina Towner, Victoria Adams, Howard Brenner, Amos Euins, and some others point to the first shot occurring just before the Zapruder film segment begins. The actions of the limo occupants, and some others immediately after the Zapruder film segment begins appears to show them looking around after being surprised by a loud noise. Tina Towner says in her book that she studied the Dorman film which briefly shows her and her parents just after she stopped filming. And that her father and some other witnesses appear to suddenly look around as if looking for the source of the loud noise. I haven’t studied the Dorman film that closely to confirm what she says. She had access to the original film (I believe) at the Sixth Floor Museum when she noted those actions. And I would assume that the quality of the images she had access to was higher than what we see in the online versions.

"In my opinion, the accounts of Tina Towner, Victoria Adams, Howard Brenner, Amos Euins, and some others point to the first shot occurring just before the Zapruder film segment begins."

Talk about cherry-picking of the first order.
You must surely be able to see that.

It's amazing how similar you and Andrew are - both touting flimsy theories based on a handful of cherry picked witnesses and both theories utterly refuted by the Z-Film.

[Dan O'meara]

One aspect of the accounts that claim that JFK was “right in front of them” that seems ambiguous to me is that that perception depends upon which direction their heads are facing at that moment. In other words, what they describe as right in front of them could be quite different from what we think is right in front of them. That is why the accounts that specify a stationary object are in my opinion more accurate.

Any normal person can stand next to a road and say, with conviction and accuracy, when a car has passed right in front of them.
To suggest otherwise is the sort of pure nonsense that arises when defending a flimsy theory.

[Charles Collins]

"In my opinion, the accounts of Tina Towner, Victoria Adams, Howard Brenner, Amos Euins, and some others point to the first shot occurring just before the Zapruder film segment begins."

Talk about cherry-picking of the first order.
You must surely be able to see that.

It's amazing how similar you and Andrew are - both touting flimsy theories based on a handful of cherry picked witnesses and both theories utterly refuted by the Z-Film.

I haven’t even mentioned the very brief stop/start of Hughes’ movie camera at essentially the same time as I believe that the first shot occurs. And the sudden jerks and shutdowns of Dorman’s movie camera which occur at the same times as my estimate for the first shot and a second shot around z224. These are documented by Dale Myers in his synchronization of the films.

[Dan O'meara]

I haven’t even mentioned the very brief stop/start of Hughes’ movie camera at essentially the same time as I believe that the first shot occurs. And the sudden jerks and shutdowns of Dorman’s movie camera which occur at the same times as my estimate for the first shot and a second shot around z224. These are documented by Dale Myers in his synchronization of the films.

The Hughes film stop/starts every few seconds, so what?
The Dorman film is all over the place from beginning to end. How can you possibly pick out any single moment and say it is unique?
You are clearly estimating when your predetermined "shot" is occurring in these films, noting what happens at that particular point and assuming it is something to do with the "shot" you have already assumed is happening at that point.
You then present these "observations" as independent corroboration of the assumed "shot" you have used to determine the "observations" in the first place.

Just for an example, can you point out precisely what is unique in the Hughes film that indicates a shot?

[Charles Collins]

The Hughes film stop/starts every few seconds, so what?
The Dorman film is all over the place from beginning to end. How can you possibly pick out any single moment and say it is unique?
You are clearly estimating when your predetermined "shot" is occurring in these films, noting what happens at that particular point and assuming it is something to do with the "shot" you have already assumed is happening at that point.
You then present these "observations" as independent corroboration of the assumed "shot" you have used to determine the "observations" in the first place.

Just for an example, can you point out precisely what is unique in the Hughes film that indicates a shot?

Just for an example, can you point out precisely what is unique in the Hughes film that indicates a shot?

Yes, the stop/start is something like the equivalent of six or seven frames if I remember correctly. A relatively small fraction of a second. This is specified in Dale Myers’ documents, but I don’t remember the exact timing. This is highly unusual and is indicative of a startle reaction to the shot. If I remember correctly, Hughes apparently wasn’t even aware of it.

[Dan O'meara]

Just for an example, can you point out precisely what is unique in the Hughes film that indicates a shot?

Yes, the stop/start is something like the equivalent of six or seven frames if I remember correctly. A relatively small fraction of a second. This is specified in Dale Myers’ documents, but I don’t remember the exact timing. This is highly unusual and is indicative of a startle reaction to the shot. If I remember correctly, Hughes apparently wasn’t even aware of it.

Can you post the Myers documents you refer to?
Otherwise it's an unsubstantiated claim.

[Charles Collins]

Can you post the Myers documents you refer to?
Otherwise it's an unsubstantiated claim.

It’s in another thread that I started, so it isn’t unsubstantiated. I dislike repeating myself. But if I have time I will look it up just for you.