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Author Topic: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.  (Read 8293 times)

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2021, 12:04:26 AM »
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I'm not surprised you're so uptight after the mauling I gave you on "The Sign of a Large-secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory" thread. I invite any reader to go to that thread and read through the record of our discussion. It ends abruptly after Reply #53 when Richard flees the debate. And note, it is Richard who comes across as the tin foil merchant, constantly barking pronouncements, deliberately refusing to understand the most simple arguments and displaying a startling lack of knowledge concerning the most basic elements of this case.

"Just asking why these folks "lied" over and over again is not evidence of complicity in the JFK assassination."

I painstakingly lay out the reality of these lies.
The lies I deal with in that thread have nothing to do with "complicity in the JFK assassination". Strawman alert!!
And these lies are not "pedantic differences in the testimony", they are wholesale fabrications.
I hadn't even begun to deal with those lies that do reveal complicity (you'd ran for the hills before that could happen).

"Since you appear to be convinced of your theory and are dismissive of any other explanations take your "evidence" to the NY Times, Wash Post or some other media outlet and make your case to them.  Surely it is Pulitzer Prize material to solve the JFK assassination by proving the involvement of folks like Truly, Fritz, Shelley, and Dougherty."

Never, ever forget, Richard - all you have is a narrative.
You have zero credible evidence that Oswald fired the shots.
Think about that for a minute while you bask in your certainty - zero credible evidence.
The only thing you have that's even close is the eye-witness testimony of Brennan.
That's it!
Absolutely nothing else.
Think about that.
And how credible is Brennan?

"Howard Brennan was not, however, an especially reliable witness:

He claimed that the man was standing up when aiming the rifle, but the sash window made this impossible; it was open only up to about waist height.
He claimed that “I was looking at the man in this window at the time of the last explosion”, but later explicitly denied that he had seen the man fire the gun.
He claimed on the afternoon of the assassination that “I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again”, but he was unable to pick out Oswald at an identification parade a few hours later, despite having seen Oswald’s photograph on television in the meantime.

[http://www.22november1963.org.uk/who-saw-oswald-in-the-sixth-floor-window]

I came across this quote attributed to Brennan on the Spartacus educational site:

"My first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor... By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President's car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn't appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do."

So, while the WC has Oswald racing across the floor, miraculously removing all prints from the rifle, Brennan has the assassin hanging around admiring his handiwork. Go figure.
This seems to be more in line with the fact BRW, Norman and Jarman, directly underneath the assassin, never reported anyone running across the floor or coming down the stairs. And Dorothy Garner never saw him/heard him coming down the stairs. And almost all witness describe the man on the 6th floor wearing a white shirt Oswald didn't have. And Oswald reportedly seeing Norman and Jarman enter the building around 12:25PM places him on the first floor, ten minutes after Rowland's man with a rifle on the 6th floor. And on and on...

Never forget  - you only have a narrative.
And if you do ever come up with some credible evidence that Oswald fired the shots why don't you "take your "evidence" to the NY Times, Wash Post or some other media outlet" and put an end to all this?
Pulitzer winning stuff indeed.

If there is anything that I've learned here, it is that the more farfetched a theory, the more fanatical is its proponent because it is a faith based belief.  As a result, the proponent is all the more impervious to facts and evidence since they would not have reached this baseless conclusion in the first place had they been capable of reason.  So meaningful discussion is impossible.  Your problem is not just with LNers, though.  To my knowledge there is not a single CTer on this forum who has professed a belief or support for your baseless conclusion that Truly, Shelley, Fritz, and Dougherty all had "foreknowledge" of the assassination.  In fact, those that have expressed any opinion share my skepticism which you also rebutted in the same way with insults and snide remarks.  Your theory is an outlandish outlier theory even in the JFK CTer community.   Which is saying a great deal. 

Unlike your baseless theory, no LNer needs to take our conclusion that LHO assassinated JFK to the NY Times or anyone else to have it validated.  The official investigations and history books already agree with that conclusion.  It does not surprise me, however, that you wish to limit your "evidence" and singular wisdom in uncovering the truth to an Internet forum rather than be exposed and embarrassed in the real world.  Imagine the laughter if you made that silly pitch outside the context of this forum to a serious historian or journalist.  You must know that is the case since you won't give it try.  Now you are dismissed.

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2021, 12:04:26 AM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2021, 02:31:11 AM »
It’s similar to how one might argue that Dominion Voting Systems rigged the election for Biden. Only ten higher ups in the company knew of this conspiracy. The people lower down did not know this. One programmer was ordered to add 3,000 votes for the Democratic candidate in this county, and a different programmer was told to add 280 votes for the Democratic candidate in this town. But they didn’t realize this was done to rig the entire national election for Biden. Yeah, right.

For a conspiracy theory to be taken seriously, it needs to have some level of evidence. Even if it's mostly circumstantial evidence (as is the case with most JFK assassination theories).

There's zero evidence for the 2020 election rigging thing. It's entirely about protecting Trump's ego by refusing to acknowledge that he lost fair and square.

I think a better comparison for the JFK assassination is the Covid lab leak theory.

Meaning, it's plausible based on circumstantial evidence that the coronavirus accidentally leaked from a lab in Wuhan, China but as of today, there's no smoking gun or conclusive evidence.

I view the JFK assassination pretty much the same way. A conspiracy is plausible but there's no smoking gun.


Okay, there were only ten in the original conspiracy. A conspiracy that will surely be exposed. Except, unbeknownst to the original ten, a bunch of others would decide, independently of each other, to cover up for them. What a lucky break.


If you're involved with the murder of a President, what's your incentive for cooperating with investigators? If you don't get killed before you confess to investigators, you're going to get the chair after conviction for the crime. Those are pretty rational reasons for those who might've been involved keeping silent.

As you may or may not know, several CIA and mafia figures suspected of involvement with the JFK assassination died coincidentally around the time when they began talking to
Congressional investigators. Dead men tell no tales.

And seven or eight to handle the logistics of what happened in Dealey Plaza. You mean to make certain no policemen or secret service agent immediately arrest or shoot at a shooter? Wouldn’t that take more than seven or eight?

And what sort of tasks did the ones who “unknowingly” helped cover up for the assassination. Unknowingly make fake autopsy reports? Unknowingly plant bullets? How exactly did they help cover things up?

Beyond 2 or 3 two-man teams posted in different parts of Dealey Plaza (one shooter and one lookout) I can't speculate any further about the logistics. I'm only speculating on the bare minimum of conspiracy participants needed to accomplish the job.


Again, I can’t tell how many were involved in covering up for the assassination, if you don’t list all the tasks that they accomplished. What were these tasks. And are they the sort of tasks that no one would figure out what the overall goal was? Since this is a small conspiracy, you should have no problem listing all the tasks.

Sorry but this is a pointless game. What difference does it make how many people were involved with the cover-up?

As I said earlier, people who had no knowledge of or involvement with the conspiracy can still have motives for engaging in cover-ups. 

The police don't like for their cases to remain unsolved (especially a high profile case involving the murder of a President). It was in their best interest to close the book quickly and give Americans closure. And other bureaucracies had other concerns. It's that simple.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 02:40:11 AM by Jon Banks »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2021, 12:24:26 AM »


. . .

If you're involved with the murder of a President, what's your incentive for cooperating with investigators? If you don't get killed before you confess to investigators, you're going to get the chair after conviction for the crime. Those are pretty rational reasons for those who might've been involved keeping silent.

I’m not talking about the original 2 or 3 or 10 conspirators. I’m talking about the ones not involved in the assassination but who were investigating it. It seems unlikely that they were all not involved in the conspiracy, but all decided to make decisions that helped cover it up. Just as a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy is highly unlikely it is also unlikely that a lot of investigators would, independently of each other, decide to cover things up, since they were not all involved in a large secret enduring conspiracy.



As you may or may not know, several CIA and mafia figures suspected of involvement with the JFK assassination died coincidentally around the time when they began talking to
Congressional investigators. Dead men tell no tales.

Beyond 2 or 3 two-man teams posted in different parts of Dealey Plaza (one shooter and one lookout) I can't speculate any further about the logistics. I'm only speculating on the bare minimum of conspiracy participants needed to accomplish the job.


OK, this is being to sound like a Large-Enduring-Conspiracy. Not involving two or three or ten, but various CIA and Mafia individuals, some of whom had to be eliminated because they knew what had happened.


Sorry but this is a pointless game. What difference does it make how many people were involved with the cover-up?

As I said earlier, people who had no knowledge of or involvement with the conspiracy can still have motives for engaging in cover-ups. 

The police don't like for their cases to remain unsolved (especially a high profile case involving the murder of a President). It was in their best interest to close the book quickly and give Americans closure. And other bureaucracies had other concerns. It's that simple.

The people working for the Warren Commission said they wanted to find a conspiracy. It would be the find of their lifetime. It would be their ticket to fame. But they couldn’t find it. Their claims sound plausible to me. I individual policemen would have the same hopes, making a major breakthrough in the case of the century. Of course, I may be wrong. Maybe they were all really part of a Large-Secret-Conspiracy bent on covering it up. Not the Small-Secret-Conspiracy that committed the original murder. But the Large-Secret-Conspiracy that sprang up spontaneously to cover it up.

In conclusion, your tactic seems to be to split the Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy in two parts. A small part, of 2 or 3 or 10, that committed the murder. And the large part that covered it up. Except the large part sprang up spontaneously and so, under your accounting, should not be counted as part of the conspiracy. This is just a clever accounting tactic, which is just as unlikely as saying they were all part of a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy. Since it is unlikely that the second large coverup, involving all those people, would just happen to spring up and leave the original plotters off the hook. Unless they decide to bump each other off.

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2021, 12:24:26 AM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2021, 01:20:44 AM »
I’m not talking about the original 2 or 3 or 10 conspirators. I’m talking about the ones not involved in the assassination but who were investigating it. It seems unlikely that they were all not involved in the conspiracy, but all decided to make decisions that helped cover it up. Just as a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy is highly unlikely it is also unlikely that a lot of investigators would, independently of each other, decide to cover things up, since they were not all involved in a large secret enduring conspiracy.

Unlikely based on what specifically?

We know that LBJ and RFK suspected that there was a conspiracy yet still endorsed the Warren Report. That should be proof enough that there were "other" motives for sticking with the Lone Assassin conclusion beyond involvement with the conspiracy.

Why do YOU think LBJ chose to go against his personal belief that there was a conspiracy in Kennedy's murder?

I've already given my opinion based on what Johnson told Earl Warren.


OK, this is being to sound like a Large-Enduring-Conspiracy. Not involving two or three or ten, but various CIA and Mafia individuals, some of whom had to be eliminated because they knew what had happened.

I honestly don't know. It could all be coincidental that people like Johnny Roselli, Sam Giancana, David Morales, Bill Harvey, and George DeMorenschildt (all suspected of involvement with the assassination) died around the time when Congress began re-investigating the JFK assassination. Or maybe it wasn't coincidental. 

The people working for the Warren Commission said they wanted to find a conspiracy. It would be the find of their lifetime. It would be their ticket to fame.

Not if it was an inside job.

If the truth is that individuals within the US national security community participated in the murder of a US President, that sort of thing could bring down our entire political system and cause all sorts of political disorder.

If you think Americans distrusting their government is bad now, imagine how much worse things would be if it were confirmed that Kennedy's assassination was an inside job.

Granted, I'm sure there were individuals within the Warren Commission and Dallas law enforcement who investigated the case in good faith but the people calling the shots and directing the investigations (ie Johnson, Hoover Wade, Dulles, Katzenberg, etc) decided almost immediately that Oswald acted alone before all potential conspiratorial evidence could be addressed. 



In conclusion, your tactic seems to be to split the Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy in two parts. A small part, of 2 or 3 or 10, that committed the murder. And the large part that covered it up. Except the large part sprang up spontaneously and so, under your accounting, should not be counted as part of the conspiracy. This is just a clever accounting tactic, which is just as unlikely as saying they were all part of a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy. Since it is unlikely that the second large coverup, involving all those people, would just happen to spring up and leave the original plotters off the hook. Unless they decide to bump each other off.

In 2021, if you're still in denial that various institutions covered up information about the Kennedy assassination, you're just as bad as the Conspiracy Theorists that you mock.

neither the FBI nor CIA even deny any longer that they hid stuff from the Warren Commission. The fact that you ignore or downplay those facts is pretty breathtaking.

And if anything, I'm letting those institutions off the hook for their confirmed cover-ups by suggesting that they likely had other motives for doing it besides complicity in Kennedy's murder.

In conclusion, no, I don't believe the persons involved with killing JFK necessarily needed to have the same agenda and motivations as the institutions that covered up things after the assassination. It's plausible in my honest opinion to view the Conspiracy plot against JFK and the various institutional coverups as two entirely separate things...

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2021, 06:10:59 PM »
If there is anything that I've learned here, it is that the more farfetched a theory, the more fanatical is its proponent because it is a faith based belief.  As a result, the proponent is all the more impervious to facts and evidence since they would not have reached this baseless conclusion in the first place had they been capable of reason.  So meaningful discussion is impossible.  Your problem is not just with LNers, though.  To my knowledge there is not a single CTer on this forum who has professed a belief or support for your baseless conclusion that Truly, Shelley, Fritz, and Dougherty all had "foreknowledge" of the assassination.  In fact, those that have expressed any opinion share my skepticism which you also rebutted in the same way with insults and snide remarks.  Your theory is an outlandish outlier theory even in the JFK CTer community.   Which is saying a great deal. 

Unlike your baseless theory, no LNer needs to take our conclusion that LHO assassinated JFK to the NY Times or anyone else to have it validated.  The official investigations and history books already agree with that conclusion.  It does not surprise me, however, that you wish to limit your "evidence" and singular wisdom in uncovering the truth to an Internet forum rather than be exposed and embarrassed in the real world.  Imagine the laughter if you made that silly pitch outside the context of this forum to a serious historian or journalist.  You must know that is the case since you won't give it try.  Now you are dismissed.

"If there is anything that I've learned here, it is that the more farfetched a theory, the more fanatical is its proponent because it is a faith based belief."

I'm trawling through this mass of contradictory and often misleading evidence and eye-witness testimony, trying to make my own sense of it, my own interpretation of events based on the evidence as it stands. I am trying to create my own narrative from all this. If that narrative agrees with others, all well and good. If it doesn't, so be it.
You, on the other hand, have had your narrative spoon-fed to you like some big baby. You've done nothing to earn it, added nothing to it, questioned nothing.
And you have the audacity to talk about a "faith based belief" as if it doesn't apply to you.
You simply regurgitate what you've swallowed whole.
There is no greater fanatic that he who is absolutely and utterly convinced he is right. You believe you are above the need to engage in any type of discussion and can contemptuously dismiss any serious debate without actually taking part.

But let us not forget this one, mind-blowing fact - there is not one iota of credible evidence that Oswald took the shots.
Really think about that. Think about your certainty and the quicksand it is built on.
Not one single, credible piece of evidence!
How can that be?
How can you have so much certainty over so little?
The answer to that is - pure faith.

If there's one thing I've learned here, a fanatic will never consider anything outside his own, spoon-fed beliefs.

"As a result, the proponent is all the more impervious to facts and evidence since they would not have reached this baseless conclusion in the first place had they been capable of reason.  So meaningful discussion is impossible."

Again, I would steer the reader to "The Sign of a Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory" to look through the record of the discussion I had with Richard there. It is me presenting the facts, analysing the evidence and proposing theories. Richard is simply in denial, the most telling sign of which is his deliberate refusal to understand the most basic arguments because they cause a problem for him and his faith.
Even in my last post here I'm providing a list of problematic issues as far as Oswald being the shooter:

All the witnesses who saw a man on the 6th floor describe him wearing a light/white shirt. Oswald was never described wearing such a shirt at the TSBD and no such shirt was found in his possession.
The only thing Amos Euins can remember is a bald spot. Something Oswald didn't have.
Brennan insists the shooter waited around admiring his handiwork yet seconds later Oswald is confronted in the second floor lunchroom.
Hank Norman can hear the shells hitting the floor but neither he, Williams nor Jarman hear "Oswald" running across the floor just above them.
Dorothy Garner reports hearing Adams and Styles racing down the stairs and Truly coming up the stairs but no Oswald.
Oswald's reported observation of Norman and Jarman entering the TSBD places him on the first floor (in the Domino Room) around 12:25Pm, exactly where he places himself at the time of the assassination.

These are all genuine issues in the evidence for the Oswald-Did-It scenario. The credible evidence for placing Oswald on the
6th floor at the time of the shooting is non-existent but that's good enough for you (because it is a matter of faith in your spoon-fed beliefs).
Argue against these points, I dare you.

"To my knowledge there is not a single CTer on this forum who has professed a belief or support for your baseless conclusion that Truly, Shelley, Fritz, and Dougherty all had "foreknowledge" of the assassination.  In fact, those that have expressed any opinion share my skepticism which you also rebutted in the same way with insults and snide remarks.  Your theory is an outlandish outlier theory even in the JFK CTer community.   Which is saying a great deal."

You have no idea what a compliment this is.
I have often bemoaned the fact that I am, by default, lumped in with the CTer community because I don't accept Oswald was the shooter. I consider myself an "outlier" in this community of mental health issues. The narrative I'm working on is my own, best interpretation of the evidence as I find it and is subject to radical revision in the light of relevant evidence or compelling argument. This is something I have demonstrated elsewhere on this forum. You can make yourself feel like a big man shooting down the farcical nonsense most forum members post here but, as you've already found out, you won't be getting such an easy ride from me.
I'd advise you to do what you did on the other thread, and run along.

"Unlike your baseless theory, no LNer needs to take our conclusion that LHO assassinated JFK to the NY Times or anyone else to have it validated.  The official investigations and history books already agree with that conclusion."

Yet another divisive tactic usually reserved for the lunatic fringe - misrepresentation.
I never wrote that you should take your "conclusion" anywhere. This is actually what I posted:

"Never forget  - you only have a narrative.
And if you do ever come up with some credible evidence that Oswald fired the shots why don't you "take your "evidence" to the NY Times, Wash Post or some other media outlet" and put an end to all this?
Pulitzer winning stuff indeed."


The point wasn't about the conclusions you've been spoon-fed and suck up unquestioningly (remember, they're not even your own conclusions, they've been provided for you)
The point of the post was the mind-blowing fact that there is not one jot of credible evidence that Oswald took the shots.
Nothing. Nada. Nil.
Only someone of true faith could accept such a thing.

"Now you are dismissed."

Dismissed??
By you ??
 :D :D :D :D :D :D
You must be joking.
Isn't it time for your diaper change?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 06:16:15 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2021, 06:10:59 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2021, 07:59:15 PM »
The point wasn't about the conclusions you've been spoon-fed and suck up unquestioningly (remember, they're not even your own conclusions, they've been provided for you)

'they've been provided for you'
... by the witnesses






  billchapman/hunter of trolls

  And so on..


  Pssst, try Fox News
  They'll believe anything.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 08:10:15 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2021, 08:12:53 PM »
The point wasn't about the conclusions you've been spoon-fed and suck up unquestioningly (remember, they're not even your own conclusions, they've been provided for you)

'they've been provided for you'
... by the witnesses






  billchapman/hunter of trolls

  And so on..


  Pssst, try Fox News
  They'll believe anything.

Your conclusions were provided for you by the witnesses Bill?
That doesn't make any sense.
Did they phone you?

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2021, 09:09:03 PM »
Your conclusions were provided for you by the witnesses Bill?
That doesn't make any sense.
Did they phone you?

You apparently missed the point of the above locations being in quotes
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 09:16:41 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: What a Conspiracy Theorist Needs to Do to be Taken Seriously.
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2021, 09:09:03 PM »