Truly's False Roll

[Charles Collins]

Piper is consistent about the time he saw Oswald. From his WC testimony:

Mr. BALL. What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch?
Mr. PIPER. Just about 12 o'clock.

Lunch was from 12:00 to 12:45pm so it makes sense it was around this time.
Piper takes his lunch around 12:00pm so he can be fairly confident about the time.

James Jarman makes this point in his affidavit on the 23rd:

"The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon"

As Oswald was seen/heard by the men coming down from the 6th floor he must have went up there sometime between 11:30 and 11:45pm. At least fifteen minutes before Piper goes for lunch.
The problem is, if Oswald has come back down to the first floor around 12:00pm then he's not up there when Givens says he is and there's no way he can sneak past Williams having his lunch to hide in the SN.

What it boils down to is whether or not to believe that Piper was correct with the 12 noon time.

Reasons to doubt:

1. Other employees have stated that they normally break for lunch about 10-minutes or so before noon to wash up, etc. And that on 11/22/63 they broke a little earlier than normal because of the motorcade.

2. Piper also said that when he heard the shots he looked at the clock and it was 12:55 pm.   

3. Piper also said that it was about 1:00 pm when the police made them vacate the building.   

4. Jarman said that LHO went up between 11:30 and 12:00.


Your reasons to believe:

1. Lunch was from 12:00 to 12:45pm so it makes sense it was around this time. [Do you really think that Piper normally continued to work on his own while the other employees normally broke for lunch about 10-minutes before noon (and a little earlier than normal on this date?]   

2. Piper takes his lunch around 12:00pm so he can be fairly confident about the time. [ this is redundant, so see my comment on #1]


As Oswald was seen/heard by the men coming down from the 6th floor he must have went up there sometime between 11:30 and 11:45pm. At least fifteen minutes before Piper goes for lunch.
The problem is, if Oswald has come back down to the first floor around 12:00pm then he's not up there when Givens says he is and there's no way he can sneak past Williams having his lunch to hide in the SN.


You are assuming that Piper didn't typically break for lunch when the others normally did. There is simply no evidence that supports your assumption.

[Dan O'meara]

What it boils down to is whether or not to believe that Piper was correct with the 12 noon time.

Reasons to doubt:

1. Other employees have stated that they normally break for lunch about 10-minutes or so before noon to wash up, etc. And that on 11/22/63 they broke a little earlier than normal because of the motorcade.

2. Piper also said that when he heard the shots he looked at the clock and it was 12:55 pm.   

3. Piper also said that it was about 1:00 pm when the police made them vacate the building.   

4. Jarman said that LHO went up between 11:30 and 12:00.


Your reasons to believe:

1. Lunch was from 12:00 to 12:45pm so it makes sense it was around this time. [Do you really think that Piper normally continued to work on his own while the other employees normally broke for lunch about 10-minutes before noon (and a little earlier than normal on this date?]   

2. Piper takes his lunch around 12:00pm so he can be fairly confident about the time. [ this is redundant, so see my comment on #1]


As Oswald was seen/heard by the men coming down from the 6th floor he must have went up there sometime between 11:30 and 11:45pm. At least fifteen minutes before Piper goes for lunch.
The problem is, if Oswald has come back down to the first floor around 12:00pm then he's not up there when Givens says he is and there's no way he can sneak past Williams having his lunch to hide in the SN.


You are assuming that Piper didn't typically break for lunch when the others normally did. There is simply no evidence that supports your assumption.

The 6th floor crew broke about 11:45-11:50pm. Not every worker did:

Mr. Ball: What time did you quit for lunch?
Mr. Jarman: It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

Mr. Belin: When did you quit for lunch that day?
Mr. West: Well, we always quit at 12 o'clock in the day.

Mr. Ball: What time do you usually go to lunch?
Mr. Dougherty: Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon.

The 6th floor crew were given permission by Shelley to break early. Piper didn't have such permission and broke at 12 which is when he saw Oswald. He remembers because they were specifically talking about breaking for lunch:

Mr. Ball: Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr. Piper: Just at 12 o'clock.
Mr. Ball: Where were you at 12 o'clock?
Mr. Piper: Down on the first floor.
Mr. Ball: What was he doing?
Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time.

"It's about lunch time", that is to say, "It's about 12".

But let's say you're right and Piper was wrong - when did this exchange between Oswald and Piper take place?

[Charles Collins]

The 6th floor crew broke about 11:45-11:50pm. Not every worker did:

Mr. Ball: What time did you quit for lunch?
Mr. Jarman: It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

Mr. Belin: When did you quit for lunch that day?
Mr. West: Well, we always quit at 12 o'clock in the day.

Mr. Ball: What time do you usually go to lunch?
Mr. Dougherty: Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon.

The 6th floor crew were given permission by Shelley to break early. Piper didn't have such permission and broke at 12 which is when he saw Oswald. He remembers because they were specifically talking about breaking for lunch:

Mr. Ball: Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr. Piper: Just at 12 o'clock.
Mr. Ball: Where were you at 12 o'clock?
Mr. Piper: Down on the first floor.
Mr. Ball: What was he doing?
Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time.

"It's about lunch time", that is to say, "It's about 12".

But let's say you're right and Piper was wrong - when did this exchange between Oswald and Piper take place?

These guys didn't punch a time clock. There were no school type bells that rang to signal breaks and lunches. It was reportedly normal for the guys to break for lunch at about 11:50 to wash up. I would expect that Piper heard the guys on the elevators as they played their race to the first floor game. And that he therefore knew that it was about time to break and wash up for lunch.

Jarman said he saw LHO go up. Givens said he saw LHO on the sixth floor. Both said it was before noon.

You, on the other hand, cling to your ad hoc assumption that Piper waited until it was actually noon.      Go ahead and believe that if you want to. I really don't care.

[Dan O'meara]

These guys didn't punch a time clock. There were no school type bells that rang to signal breaks and lunches. It was reportedly normal for the guys to break for lunch at about 11:50 to wash up. I would expect that Piper heard the guys on the elevators as they played their race to the first floor game. And that he therefore knew that it was about time to break and wash up for lunch.

Jarman said he saw LHO go up. Givens said he saw LHO on the sixth floor. Both said it was before noon.

You, on the other hand, cling to your ad hoc assumption that Piper waited until it was actually noon.      Go ahead and believe that if you want to. I really don't care.

Two of the employees I quoted stated that they broke for lunch at 12 but you know better.

The question is - when did the exchange between Oswald and Piper take place?

[Charles Collins]

Two of the employees I quoted stated that they broke for lunch at 12 but you know better.

The question is - when did the exchange between Oswald and Piper take place?

I wasn't there and neither were you. So any answer, by either one of us, to your "question" is only a guess.

A theory that appears plausible to me is that Shelly came down shortly before the work crew did. LHO probably noticed Shelly and what time it was and told Piper that he was going up to lunch. LHO probably took the elevator back up to the sixth floor. This meant that both elevators were on the sixth floor for the race. Just after the race started, LHO hollered for them to close the gates when they got off. Givens saw LHO on the sixth floor when he came back up to get his cigarettes. BRW came up after that and ate his lunch on the sixth floor while LHO kept quiet and out of sight.

But I am pretty sure that you will provide very shortly a conflicting account to this theory.

[Jerry Freeman]

The only thing convoluted is how one has to twist selected and isolated testimony to make-believe BRW ate his lunch in the sniper's nest. A little later BRW diagrams the area where he ate his lunch.

One window away from the snipers nest then....woopiespombleprofglidnoctobuns! Let's split hairs and then split the ends.
BRW sat right next to the snipers nest and then became deaf

Apparently Mr Collins did not read my link to the Charles Givens thread which demonstrated to great lengths that he lied and that David Belin made sure his lies were documented as witness/evidence that Oswald was on the 6th floor at noon.
Here it is again---  https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.msg52976.html#msg52976

[Charles Collins]

One window away from the snipers nest then....woopiespombleprofglidnoctobuns! Let's split hairs and then split the ends.
BRW sat right next to the snipers nest and then became deaf

Apparently Mr Collins did not read my link to the Charles Givens thread which demonstrated to great lengths that he lied and that David Belin made sure his lies were documented as witness/evidence that Oswald was on the 6th floor at noon.
Here it is again---  https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.msg52976.html#msg52976

Two windows down from the sniper's nest (about 35-feet). That is not right next to it. Keeping quiet enough to be undetected, and out of sight, would not be difficult under those circumstances.

I read your thread when you posted it earlier. And I re-read it again just now. I agree with the several people who posted counter opinions.

[Jerry Freeman]

Two windows down from the sniper's nest (about 35-feet). That is not right next to it. Keeping quiet enough to be undetected, and out of sight, would not be difficult under those circumstances.

Who had to keep quiet...the sniper or BRW? So then if Williams had to keep quiet...then he lied. And you claim he didn't. Two windows down is not 35 ft.

I read your thread when you posted it earlier. And I re-read it again just now. I agree with the several people who posted counter opinions.

Of course you do.
You read 200 posts that quickly? A true blue Myttoneer Bullcrap.