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Author Topic: Colors of Blue and Gold  (Read 83928 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #376 on: June 06, 2023, 04:15:29 AM »
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We agree on that. War is never the answer.

Sometimes war is the answer. A lot of people died in World War II. But even more people would have died if the Allies made peace with Germany. If the Soviet Union decided not to wage war against the Nazis and just let them occupy as much land as they want to.

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #376 on: June 06, 2023, 04:15:29 AM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #377 on: June 06, 2023, 02:02:05 PM »
Sometimes war is the answer. A lot of people died in World War II. But even more people would have died if the Allies made peace with Germany. If the Soviet Union decided not to wage war against the Nazis and just let them occupy as much land as they want to.

How exactly would "more people have died" if the allies had made peace with Germany?   There were something like 50 million people killed in that war.  Countless injured.  Cities destroyed. Maybe you can argue that the Nazis were so evil that the war was justified but not that the war saved lives.  And, of course, the situation in Ukraine is nothing like WWII.  Putin is not Hitler.  There is no genocide going on.  This is a regional conflict that predates this war by centuries.  It is more akin to Vietnam or Afghanistan than WWII.

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #378 on: June 07, 2023, 11:41:46 PM »
Ukraine will be a smoldering hole by the time this war ends.  The weakness and incompetence of Old Joe emboldened Putin to invade.  Biden's inability to articulate a policy or plan for ending it is maximizing the cost to everyone.  No effort whatsoever is being made by anyone in the Biden administration to find a solution.  Just endless war until the Russians decide enough is enough.  Is that in five years, ten, a hundred?  No one knows.  That is what happens when you elect a person based on propaganda and lies.  I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine that they are pawns for radicalized Trump haters.

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #378 on: June 07, 2023, 11:41:46 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #379 on: June 08, 2023, 01:11:39 PM »
The NY Times begrudgingly acknowledged that Ukraine has a Nazi problem


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #380 on: June 22, 2023, 12:43:51 AM »

How exactly would "more people have died" if the allies had made peace with Germany?   There were something like 50 million people killed in that war.  Countless injured.  Cities destroyed. Maybe you can argue that the Nazis were so evil that the war was justified but not that the war saved lives.  And, of course, the situation in Ukraine is nothing like WWII.  Putin is not Hitler.  There is no genocide going on.  This is a regional conflict that predates this war by centuries.  It is more akin to Vietnam or Afghanistan than WWII.

In Eastern Europe, the majority of the millions who died were civilians, not soldiers killed in battle. Hitler made it clear in "Mein Kampf" that he intended to replace the millions of "Slavs" in the east with German settlers. So the German army had no problem using the slightest excuse to wipe out entire villages of hundreds of people on the excuse that they were all partisans. Had the German army not been so pre-occupied with the bulk of the army fighting the Red Army, the number of civilians killed could have been much higher than it was.

Admittedly, Hitler was unpredictable. Maybe we would have accepted a German-Russian-Ukrainian-Polish-Baltic hybrid people populating eastern Europe after he was gone. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

So yes, it is possible for a people to lose more people after defeat than they did during war.

If Ukraine is defeated, it is possible that Ukraine will have fewer people killed after defeat than the loses they have suffered during the war. Putin may decide to limit the number of people he should have killed if he wins. But if I was Ukrainian, I wouldn't bet on it. He might want to kill all the officers of high rank. Or all officers of any rank. As Stalin did with the Polish officers in 1940. Or anyone who volunteered to serve in the Ukrainian army. To take out the people most likely to resist Russian rule. If Ukraine loses to Russia, they could easily have more people killed during the subsequent "peace" as were killed during the war. It would be up to the whim of Putin to decide. Just as it was up to the whim of Stalin to decide whether to kill the Polish officers or not in 1940.

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #380 on: June 22, 2023, 12:43:51 AM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #381 on: June 22, 2023, 12:59:33 AM »

Why aren't the Ukrainians attacking more?

The blowing of the dam flooded about 60 miles of Russia's front. Giving Russia 60 less miles of front to defend. Allowing those troops to be concentrated to the East, in eastern Zaporizhzhia.

But if the Ukrainians wait a few weeks, as they appear to be doing, the flood waters will come down. Than the hot Ukrainian summer sun will dry out the wet soil. And a river crossing of that 60 mile stretch will be possible, forcing the Russians to send back the troops to defend that stretch, to prevent the "Land Bridge" to Crimea from being cut.

In addition, the reservoir that extended something like 120 miles upstream of the dam is now largely gone. When this land dries out, it will now be vulnerable, to a river crossing by an army. Something that could not have been done while the dam still stood.

So, in the long run, the Russians have just needlessly given themselves an extra 120 miles of frontage to defend. And gotten a lot of their soldiers sick with Cholera. Just to give them a temporary advantage of 60 miles less of frontage to defend. Something that the Ukrainians can easily negate by waiting a few weeks. They can delay the offensive. It probably won't take 4 months to advance 50 miles at a weak spot that they choose.

So blowing the dam gives the Russian's a temporary advantage of 60 miles less of line that has to be manned. But in the long run, just a few weeks from now, they will have to defend those 60 miles again. And up to another 120 miles on top of that. Giving them a long flank of 300 miles long, but only 50 miles wide, to defend. An attack that breaks through anywhere and advances a mere 50 or so miles, will break the "Land Bridge" to Crimea, likely resulting in the fall of Crimea. Which may cause the Russian people to throw in the towel and give up on this clown show. We shall see.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #382 on: June 24, 2023, 02:09:09 AM »
Goodbye Yevgeny Prigozhin. Perhaps, goodbye the Wagner Group. Though I suspect not. I doubt very many members of the Wagner Group will go to war with the FSB. In any case, the Wagner Group is about to come under new management. The chef to Putin has just cooked his own goose. Putin will get his revenge and it won't be served cold. It's coming fast.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #383 on: June 24, 2023, 02:22:15 AM »

The NY Times begrudgingly acknowledged that Ukraine has a Nazi problem


The United States has a Nazi problem. Germany has a Nazi problem. Lot's of countries have a Nazi problem. Indeed, America's biggest Fascist problem is ex-President Trump. Who, alone of all of America's Presidents, I do not consider to be a real President. You have to die in office, or turn over power to your successor, in a way to reaffirm the people's faith in democracy. Only then do you truly become an American President. And we have Americans who if not pro-Nazi, seem to be pro-Fascist. Who echo the arguments of Russia, a Fascist state.

But no country has as big a Nazi problem as Russia. No other country heavily relies on a group like the Wagner Group, named after Hitler's favorite composer and which makes extensive use of Nazi like imagery. And it's not just the Wagner Group. Leading spokesmen of Russia have proclaimed "One country, One President, One Victory", very similar to the Nazi slogan "One people, One Germany, One Leader".

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #383 on: June 24, 2023, 02:22:15 AM »