Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?

[Martin Weidmann]

I'm only telling you what the police tapes tell us.  The tapes tell us that Callaway made his report to the police dispatcher AFTER the body was loaded and the ambulance was pulling away from the scene.

Once we have that, we are left to decide how much weight to give everything else.

You say you have Callaway and Butler.  I say I have Benavides, Scoggins and Bowley.

I have a question for you, Martin.  In your opinion, what time did the Tippit shooting occur?  Rough estimate?

The tapes tell us that Callaway made his report to the police dispatcher AFTER the body was loaded and the ambulance was pulling away from the scene.

No they don't tell us that! Why do you stubbornly keep on claiming that when anybody who listens to the audio recordings can hear for themselves that this is simply not true?

what time did the Tippit shooting occur?

In real time? Most likely around 1:09 / 1:10

Now, I have a question for you;

Helen Markham testified that she left home, on 9th street, at about 1:06 / 1:07 and when asked what time she usually got her bus, she replied: 1:15

In the past you have said that the schedule for the bus she took, on Jefferson, showed 1:12 and 1:22 as departure times and you claimed - without a shred of evidence - she must have been talking about the 1:22 bus. Be that as it may, it really isn't relevant, because as far as Markham was concerned, she needed to be at the bus stop at 1:15.

Now, here's the thing; to get from 9th street to Jefferson, Markham had to walk two blocks of each 460 feet each. At normal walking speed that would have taken 2 minutes for each block, so roughly 4 minutes in total. If she left her house at 1:07 she would have gotten to 10th street by 1:09 and to Jefferson by 1:11, perhaps 1:12 at the latest, some three minutes ahead of 1:15 and most likely in time to catch either the 1:12 or 1:22 bus. Even if we assume that she did not leave the house until 1:10, she still would have gotten to 10th street by 1:12 and the bus stop before 1:15.

So, the question is; if the shooting really did happen at 1:14:30 or 1:15, what was Markham still doing at the corner of 10th street and Patton at that time, when she should have been at the bus stop on Jefferson?

[Bill Brown]

The tapes tell us that Callaway made his report to the police dispatcher AFTER the body was loaded and the ambulance was pulling away from the scene.

No they don't tell us that! Why do you stubbornly keep on claiming that when anybody who listens to the audio recordings can hear for themselves that this is simply not true.

what time did the Tippit shooting occur?

I real time? Most likely around 1:09 / 1:10

1:09 to 1:10?

Is that based an anything other than Markham and Bowley?

What time (roughly) do you believe Bowley's call occurred on Tippit's patrol car radio?

[Martin Weidmann]

1:09 to 1:10?

Is that based an anything other than Markham and Bowley?

What time (roughly) do you believe Bowley's call occurred on Tippit's patrol car radio?

It's based on a bit more than that. But I have added a question to my post while you wrote your reply.

It concerns Markham. Care to answer it?

[Martin Weidmann]

As for a response to John Iacoletti, I'm not ignoring it.  I am trying to find the source.  Some of this stuff I have known for years and have no idea where I first learned it.

This is crucial information. You started the debate unprepaired?

I wouldn't be surprised if you just got it from Myers and Bugliosi's book and simply accepted it as true without question.

Do you always vigurously defend something that you have no idea if it is actually true or where you first learned it?

[Bill Brown]

Helen Markham testified that she left home, on 9th street, at about 1:06 / 1:07 and when asked what time she usually got her bus, she replied: 1:15

In the past you have said that the schedule for the bus she took, on Jefferson, showed 1:12 and 1:22 as departure times and you claimed - without a shred of evidence - she must have been talking about the 1:22 bus.

No.

This isn't the first time you've grossly misquoted me and/or misrepresented my position.

I have never claimed that Markham must have been talking about the 1:22 bus.

All I have ever said, regarding this, is that all of those who claim Markham was on her way to catch the 1:12 bus have no right to state that as a fact since there was also a 1:22 bus.

In fact, I have been very careful in the past to not claim as a fact that Markham must be catching the 1:22 bus.

Stop misrepresenting what I have (or have not) said.  Cool?

[Mitch Todd]

Nice bit of speculation, based on the assumption (1) that the dispatcher clock is only marginally off, when it could in fact be two minutes off, not from real time but from the master clock in the dispatcher's office and (2) that the dispatcher made the calls on time.

Another problem is the fact that the official narrative has the time of the shooting between 1:14:30 and 1:15. Callaway's arrival on the scene, which happened during the 46 seconds between the end of Bowley's call and the arrival of the ambulance, makes it highly unlikely that Bowley started his call at 1:17 or even 1:17:44(or later).

The analysis I did involves channel one time only. That should be obvious to anyone who actually bothers to read and understand it. I did not assume anything regarding how close channel one time was to any other time standard. That issue doesn't even come up in the analysis. I did assume that the dispatcher made calls to the correct minute. That is a part of his job, after all. If you want to argue differently, you can present evidence to contrary. Otherwise, you're just barking at the moon.

The one other assumption I've made is that channel one runs continuously from the beginning of the Bowley call. Given the amount of traffic that follows during the next few minutes, I think this is quite a safe assumption.

Also, the analysis does not address "the official narrative." It simply derives a 20-second range of values for the start of the Bowley call (in channel one time, because you seem to need that spelled out) based on a couple of fortuitous observations about the two "1:19" timestamps. The rest is a different kettle of fish.

[Bill Brown]

The tapes tell us that Callaway made his report to the police dispatcher AFTER the body was loaded and the ambulance was pulling away from the scene.

No they don't tell us that! Why do you stubbornly keep on claiming that when anybody who listens to the audio recordings can hear for themselves that this is simply not true?

what time did the Tippit shooting occur?

I real time? Most likely around 1:09 / 1:10

Now, I have a question for you;

Helen Markham testified that she left home, on 9th street, at about 1:06 / 1:07 and when asked what time she usually got her bus, she replied: 1:15

In the past you have said that the schedule for the bus she took, on Jefferson, showed 1:12 and 1:22 as departure times and you claimed - without a shred of evidence - she must have been talking about the 1:22 bus. Be that as it may, it really isn't relevant, because as far as Markham was concerned, she needed to be at the bus stop at 1:15.

Now, here's the thing; to get from 9th street to Jefferson, Markham had to walk two blocks of each 460 feet each. At normal walking speed that would have taken 2 minutes for each block, so roughly 4 minutes in total. If she left her house at 1:07 she would have gotten to 10th street by 1:09 and to Jefferson by 1:11, perhaps 1:12 at the latest, some three minutes ahead of 1:15 and most likely in time to catch either the 1:12 or 1:22 bus. Even if we assume that she did not leave the house until 1:10, she still would have gotten to 10th street by 1:12 and the bus stop before 1:15.

So, the question is; if the shooting really did happen at 1:14:30 or 1:15, what was Markham still doing at the corner of 10th street and Patton at that time, when she should have been at the bus stop on Jefferson?

If she left her house at 1:07...

Your entire premise is based off of something which I do not believe to be true.  I base that off of the police tapes, which tell me that Markham did not leave her apartment (not a house) as early as 1:07.

[John Mytton]

It concerns Markham. Care to answer it?

Yes, Markham was a very important eyewitness, she positively identified Oswald as the killer of J D Tippit. Markham's clock was never independently verified as being accurate so it's not worth debating and considering a bus came every ten minutes, then waiting for the next bus was always going to be less than 10 minutes so another pointless go nowhere argument. As much as the CT's try to manipulate the approximate times for the Tippit murder, the end result is that Oswald was positively identified and he left shells at the scene which exclusively matched his revolver.

Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.

JohnM