Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?

[Martin Weidmann]

Where did Bill Brown go?

Did he lose interest again?   

[Bill Brown]

We've exhausted the issue of whether or not Callaway loaded the body into the ambulance before getting on the police radio to report the shooting.  I've stated my case below and all you've done regarding it is simply choose to ignore what Bowley, Benavides, Scoggins and the police tapes tell you.

I say Ted Callaway helped load Tippit's body into the ambulance and then went over to the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher.  Martin Weidmann says I am wrong, that Callaway got on the patrol car radio first... and then helped load the body into the ambulance.  This matters when trying to explain Callaway's timeline between hearing the shots ring out and reporting the shooting on the patrol car radio.

By the way, if Callaway got on the patrol car radio BEFORE helping to load the body into the ambulance (he didn't), then all it really does is help the false narrative that the shooting occurred earlier than 1:14/1:15.  In other words, Callaway helping with the body before getting on the police radio does not support my argument that the shooting occurred around 1:14/1:15; it would support the idea the shooting occurred a bit earlier than the official version.  Nevertheless, that is what happened.

The police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

602 (ambulance):   602.       
Dispatcher:   85.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   85.       
Dispatcher:   Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   10-4.       
Dispatcher:   No physical description.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Hello, hello, hello.       
602 (ambulance):   602.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Pardon, from out here on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he's dead.
Dispatcher:   10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio: Remain off the radio now.

That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital.  However, he could not get through because Callaway is on the squad car radio reporting the incident (as the ambulance is speeding off).

After arriving on the scene in the ambulance, Butler and Kinsley rolled Tippit's body over (he was lying on his stomach) in order to place Tippit onto the stretcher..  Callaway noticed Tippit's service revolver lying on the street (it was underneath the body).  Callaway picked up the revolver and placed it on the hood of the patrol car and then helped Bowley, Butler and Kinsley load Tippit's body into the ambulance.

T.F. Bowley stated in his affidavit that once Tippit's body was loaded into the ambulance, he saw the service revolver lying on the hood of the patrol car (having been placed there moments earlier by Callaway).  Bowley picked up the revolver off of the hood and placed on the front seat of the patrol car.

"When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car." -- T.F. Bowley (12/2/63 affidavit)

After making his report to the police dispatcher on the squad car radio, Callaway grabbed the service revolver from the front seat and proceeded to seek others to help him go off in search for the killer.

More evidence that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE he got on the police radio to report the shooting...

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time" was once the ambulance "took him away".

Domingo Benavides said that Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting and the "officer" at the other end (the dispatcher) told Callaway that they already had that information and to stay off the air.  Benavides then said that Callaway grabbed the service revolver and said to Benavides that they should go chase the killer.  Benavides said he declined and added that Callaway then went over to the cab driver (Scoggins).

Callaway said to Scoggins "Let's get the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.'".  Benavides said nothing about Callaway helping to load the body into the ambulance before going over to Scoggins with the revolver (because this had already been done earlier and the ambulance was gone).

The police tapes clearly tell you that 602 (the Kinsley/Butler ambulance) was leaving the scene at the same time you hear Callaway making his report to the police dispatcher.  Scoggins and Benavides confirm what the police tapes tell you.

==============================

Do you care to discuss a different Tippit-related topic with me?

[Bill Brown]

And this....

With Malice recounts the happenings in a minute by minute chronological order.

====================

"While the dispatcher spoke with Officer Walker, ambulance driver J.C. Butler radioed to inform police that the man shot was a Dallas police officer and that they were about to leave the murder scene with his body." -- With Malice (2013) page 161

====================

"William "Eddie" Kinsley slammed the back door of the ambulance shut and climbed into the passenger seat next to Butler.  As Butler pulled away from the crowd, he again tried to contact the dispatcher to tell him they were en route to the hospital, but this time Ted Callaway was on the radio.  "I ran over to the squad car," Callaway recalled, "I didn't know if anybody reported it or not.  So I got on the police radio and called them."

Ted Callaway: Hello, hello, hello.

J.C. Butler:  602

Callaway:  - calling from right here on Tenth Street - 500 block - this police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead.

Dispatcher:  10-4, we have the information.  The citizen using the radio will remain off the air now."

With Malice (2013) page 162

====================

"While Callaway was talking to the dispatcher, T.F. Bowley took Tippit's gun, which was lying on the hood of the squad car, and put it in the front seat, next to the used car salesman."

"After the officer on the other side of the radio told Callaway to hang up and keep the lines clear," Benavides recalled, "he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what happened and I said, 'Yes.'"

"Callaway reached back into the squad car and picked up Tippit's .38 caliber service revolver off the front seat.  He turned to Benavides and said, "Let's chase him," but the mechanic declined.  Callaway snapped the revolver open and T.F. Bowley - who was looking on - saw that no rounds had been fired.  Callaway tucked the gun in his belt and turned to the cab driver."

With Malice (2013) page 163

====================

Reclaiming History recounts the happenings in a minute by minute chronological order.

"Butler kneels next to Tippit's body and rolls him on his back as Kinsley pulls the stretcher cot from the back of the station wagon.  Tippit's pistol is out of it's holster, lying on the pavement near his right palm.  Ted Callaway moves the gun to the hood of the squad car, then with Scoggins and Guinyard, helps the attendants lift the body onto the stretcher.  As they do so, the first Dallas police officer to arrive at the murder scene, reserve sergeant Kenneth Croy, pulls up.  Butler and Kinsley push the cot into the back, slam the door and are off in a flash to Methodist Hospital about a mile away."

Reclaiming History (2007) page 83

====================

"Ted Callaway can hear the confusion and desperation of the police over Tippit's car radio as they struggle to locate the scene of the officer's shooting.  He lowers his big frame into the patrol car and grabs the mike, "Hello, hello, hello!" "From out here on Tenth Street," he continues, "five-hundred block.  This police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead." "Ten-four, we [already] have the information'" dispatcher Jackson replies, exasperated.  "The citizen using the radio will remain off the air now." The last thing he needs is some gung-ho citizen tying up the airwaves."

"Ted Callaway climbs out of the squad car and spots his mechanic, Domingo Benavides. "Did you see what happened?" "Yes", Benavides says.  Callaway picks up Tippit's service revolver.  "Let's chase him," he says.  Benavides wants no part of it.  Callaway tucks the gun in his belt and turns to the cabdriver, Scoggins."

Reclaiming History (2007) page 84

[Martin Weidmann]

Repeating the same weak arguments doesn't make your case any stronger or persuasive.

We've exhausted the issue of whether or not Callaway loaded the body into the ambulance before getting on the police radio to report the shooting.  I've stated my case below and all you've done regarding it is simply choose to ignore what Bowley, Benavides, Scoggins and the police tapes tell you.

I did not ignore Bowley, Benavides, Scoggins and the police tapes. I have clearly pointed out that none of the three men has stated that Callaway made his call after helping load Tippit in to the ambulance. Your interpretation of what they did say isn't evidence. For example; in the Benavides quote, for which you failed to provide authentication, the ambulance isn't mentioned at all. You say that this means that the ambulance had already gone, but that's just your flawed opinion.

Your claim that the audio recording of the police radio tells us that Butler tried in vain to call the dispatcher to allegedly let him know he was leaving the scene is debunked by Butler himself, as he confirmed to George and Patricia Nash in 1964 that he tried to call the dispatcher to let him know the victim was a police officer. Despite the fact that Butler made two calls, 8 seconds apart, and can only be heard saying "602" you nevertheless continue to claim that he was calling the dispatcher to let him know he was departing the scene.

I asked you for evidence to back up that claim, and so did John Iacoletti;

Evidence please that 602 was “trying to contact the dispatcher to tell him they were en route to the hospital” when he just said “602” and the dispatcher didn’t respond.

“Dale Myers thinks so” is not evidence.

and you responded;

As for a response to John Iacoletti, I'm not ignoring it.  I am trying to find the source.  Some of this stuff I have known for years and have no idea where I first learned it.

Since then, you have been silent on the subject, which leaves me with the impression that you can not provide the evidence John asked for, probably because it simply doesn't exist.

I have provided three quotes by Callaway, saying that he first got on the radio and then helped to load Tippit into the ambulance. I have shown that the audio recording of the DPD radio provides a timeline in which it was impossible for Callaway to help load Tippit into the ambulance prior to his call, as there wasn't enough time available for that, and I have provided you with a statement by Butler, the ambulance driver, who confirms that he tried to call the dispatcher (twice) to let him know that the victim was a police officer and he, after failing to get through, went back to the officer who was still lying in the street.

You have dismissed Callaway's statements as being "mistaken" and you have completely ignored the timeline provided by the audio recordings as well as what Butler told George and Patricia Nash.

It is not my problem that you don't understand the difference between actual evidence and your unsupported opinions.

Do you care to discuss a different Tippit-related topic with me?

What would be the point when all you seem able to do is make erroneous claims that are not backed up by actual evidence?

Will you be providing the evidence John asked for any time soon?

[Joe Elliott]

I have stayed off of this thread for a month, to allow Martin Weidmann and Bill Brown to debate it. That is long enough.

I think Bill Brown is clearly correct. The notion that Callaway first helped load the body of Officer Tippit into the ambulance and then called in on the radio is supported by the physical evidence, the police tapes. The opposite notion is only supported by a witness recollection, Callaway’s and witness memories is always among the weakest kind of evidence. And in this case, it is evidence that is contradicted by other witness’s memories. And, above all else, by the physical evidence. I always choose physical evidence over the memory of witnesses. Can’t be much of a skeptic if one does otherwise.

One of the most common types of witness’s errors, is misremembering the order of events. It is less likely, but not impossible, to remember doing something one did not do at all. Like for Callaway to remember that he helped load a body onto an ambulance, or talking on the police radio, or going in search of the killer, but to have actually not done some or any of those things. But is would be very easy for him to misremember to order of events. I am confident that he did misremember the order of events. The evidence shows this.

[Dan O'meara]

I am no fan of Martin but on this issue he is clearly correct and has presented, by far, the more compelling case.
Bill's constant insistence that the police "tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital", is wrong and his method of simply repeating this over and over again, hoping it will turn into a fact, is disappointing, to say the least.
The police tapes reveal "602" arriving on Jefferson and finding nothing, then being redirected to East 10th street and, finally, giving the "code 6" on arrival at the scene. Seconds later Callaway makes his call whilst Butler, as he describes to the Nashes, tries to get through to dispatch to tell them the victim is an officer but can't get through [as Callaway is making his call]
The 'coup de grace' is the Nash article in which Butler clarifies exactly when he was trying to get through to dispatch.

The argument Martin has made is clear and concise.
Bill has offered a sketchy interpretation of selected eye-witness statements in order to refute this argument.

[Martin Weidmann]

I have stayed off of this thread for a month, to allow Martin Weidmann and Bill Brown to debate it. That is long enough.

I think Bill Brown is clearly correct. The notion that Callaway first helped load the body of Officer Tippit into the ambulance and then called in on the radio is supported by the physical evidence, the police tapes. The opposite notion is only supported by a witness recollection, Callaway’s and witness memories is always among the weakest kind of evidence. And in this case, it is evidence that is contradicted by other witness’s memories. And, above all else, by the physical evidence. I always choose physical evidence over the memory of witnesses. Can’t be much of a skeptic if one does otherwise.

One of the most common types of witness’s errors, is misremembering the order of events. It is less likely, but not impossible, to remember doing something one did not do at all. Like for Callaway to remember that he helped load a body onto an ambulance, or talking on the police radio, or going in search of the killer, but to have actually not done some or any of those things. But is would be very easy for him to misremember to order of events. I am confident that he did misremember the order of events. The evidence shows this.

The notion that Callaway first helped load the body of Officer Tippit into the ambulance and then called in on the radio is supported by the physical evidence, the police tapes.

Care to explain how you reached that conclusion?

The opposite notion is only supported by a witness recollection

No it isn't. The audio recording of the DPD radio shows that Butler, the ambulance driver, made two calls to the dispatcher, 8 seconds apart. One just prior to Callaway getting on the radio and one while Callaway was making his call. The reason for both calls are explained by Butler to George and Patricia Nash, in 1964. He called to tell the dispatcher that the victim was a police officer and when he couldn't get through he returned to Tippit who was still lying in the street. It doesn't get anymore clear than that! There is no evidence that Butler called to inform the dispatcher that the ambulance was leaving the scene, as Bill Brown claims.

I am confident that he did misremember the order of events. The evidence shows this.

Where exactly does the evidence show that Callaway misremembered?

[Richard Smith]

The pedantic analysis of the timeline is a desperate effort by CTers to exonerate Oswald.  Because of the vagaries of the estimates of time  of events down to the very minute, it allows CTers to endlessly go down the yellow brick road with their contrarian approach as though they are proving something.  The fact remains that there is no doubt that Oswald murdered J.D. Tippit even if there are real or imagined ambiguities in the timeline. That analysis is completely moot if it can otherwise be proven that Oswald was at the crime scene.  This crime was committed in broad daylight in front of many witnesses.  Those witnesses confirm that LHO was the person at the scene with a gun.  He was arrested a short distance away with a gun after acting so suspiciously that random citizens called the police.  He didn't even wait to ask the police what was going on but attempted to assault them when approached.  He had in his possession the exact same TWO brands of ammunition as used in the Tippit murder.  So there are multiple circumstances that link Oswald to this crime beyond any doubt.  The timeline doesn't change that one iota.  If you want to believe Oswald ran, got a ride, or flew there by helicopter, it doesn't change the evidence that places him at the crime scene at the moment Tippit was murdered.