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Author Topic: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?  (Read 50021 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #328 on: May 30, 2022, 09:01:33 PM »
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The question is, did he have a gun before McDonald accosted him? We only have McDonald’s say-so on that. A known attention-seeking, self-promoting, serial embellisher who needed to justify his own misconduct.

A lot of people’s hands were on a gun during the struggle. Only Brewer (again, across a darkened theater) claimed to see one in Oswald’s hand. McDonald didn’t even say that.

“Another guy”. LOL.

Mr. McDONALD. Yes. I went at him with this hand, and I believe I struck him on the face, but I don't know where. And with my hand, that was on his hand over the pistol.

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BONUS
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Now watch Iacoletti try to pull his old 'precise language' shtick  :D
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 09:28:02 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #328 on: May 30, 2022, 09:01:33 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #329 on: May 30, 2022, 09:20:09 PM »
JI: "...[that] doesn’t mean that the maximum they could ever be off is two minutes."

MT: You are technically correct.


Thank you. That invalidates your entire claim that he said that the dispatcher clocks were kept to within a minute of each other." You omitted “or so” and “normal procedure” in your dishonest summary.
My statement invalidates nothing else I've said. Your logic is simply faulty.

I haven't quite claimed that "the dispatcher clocks were kept to within a minute of each other."  I claimed the standard the DPD used was to keep clocks to within a minute of each other. Those aren't really the same things. I've used both Cason's and Bowles' testimony to demonstrate this.

Knowing the standard sets the expected operation. And while accidents happen and things sometimes go cattywhompus, those are unusual occurrences. The unusual has a higher burden of proof, which is simply the more general (and necessarily milder) case of the old skeptic's saw that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". This is especially true here, where we already have evidence pointing to the clocks being within one minute of each other, and no evidence that they were off by any more.

"Or so" simply means "some small amount in addition to or subtracted from." Since Bowles starts with "a minute," then "or so" means something less than a minute. If Bowles wanted to say "a minute or two," he was perfectly willing to and capable of doing so. You've already provided the evidence of this.


What data? You can’t use the time announcements to validate the time announcements. There is no “data” that tells you how far apart they were that day.
If you don't know by know what the data is, then you need to shut it, pack it up, and go home. Otherwise, all you are doing is wasting everyone's time, including your own. I'm spoon-feeding you everything like you're some little bitty whiny baby kid.

You’ve presented no evidence that they were at most a minute apart that day. Which is your claim.
Yes I have, in previous incarnations of this debate. Again, you don't know what's going on, but that doesn't stop you from arguing about it. Which is just a waste of time.

MT: I'm not sure where you get the idea that the channel one recordings have been "edited" or "dubbed" outside of where consecutive recordings have been spliced together.

Ignoring your “massive spliceapalooza” strawman, a splice IS an edit. And of course they were dubbed. Multiple times. None of us are listening to the original Dictabelt and Audograph. And they had a tendency to skip and repeat sections. Those (at least) were edited as well.
If you go back and reread what you responded to, I specifically accounted for cases "outside of where consecutive recordings have been spliced together." Your response is then redundant, and also another waste of time.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 08:05:24 PM by Mitch Todd »

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #330 on: May 30, 2022, 09:35:24 PM »
No, the burden of proof lies on the person claiming that “usually” really means always.
I never said that "usually" means "always." If you have to keep putting words in my mouth in order to continue arguing then you must be in a pretty pitiful state of affairs here.

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #330 on: May 30, 2022, 09:35:24 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #331 on: May 30, 2022, 10:04:56 PM »
Bowles himself said that the DPDs standard was to keep the dispatcher clocks to within a minute. Francis Cason said the same thing. I've quoted both saying it.

Bowles said a hell of a lot more than that. You can do all the self-serving song and dance you want, it doesn't change the fact that Bowles clearly provided information that the DPD time stamps can not be relied upon.
Bowles provided no such "information." He did cough up a handful of hypothetical situations that might affect the timestamps, but could not provide any examples that this was the case. And --again-- he's the guy who would know. You have also failed to provide any examples on your own.

MT: You started off here saying that you rely on nothing. [Then, three sentences later, you declare that you rely on Bowles ('...that's good enough for me').]

Stop misrepresenting what I actually said, which was;

"I don't rely on anything. I merely state factual information. It's not my problem that you don't like it. "
I misrepresented nothing. Your first first sentence directly contradicts your fourth, and the two in between do nothing to mitigate the collision.

Your argument is with Bowles, not with me. But anybody who needs to misrepresent something like this, isn't worth talking to.

Good luck trying to play down what the chief of the DPD dispatchers (who, in case you don't understand that, is a primary source) said. 

I'm not going to waste my time dealing with your nonsense.
I'm not arguing with Bowles. He never actually claimed that there was a clock issue on the 22nd. The best he could manage was to insinuate that something might have been wrong, based on few hypothetical situations for which he provides no substantiation. That's a pretty thin gruel with which to nurse your notions back to health. 

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #332 on: May 30, 2022, 10:39:14 PM »
Bowles provided no such "information." He did cough up a handful of hypothetical situations that might affect the timestamps, but could not provide any examples that this was the case. And --again-- he's the guy who would know. You have also failed to provide any examples on your own.
I misrepresented nothing. Your first first sentence directly contradicts your fourth, and the two in between do nothing to mitigate the collision.
I'm not arguing with Bowles. He never actually claimed that there was a clock issue on the 22nd. The best he could manage was to insinuate that something might have been wrong, based on few hypothetical situations for which he provides no substantiation. That's a pretty thin gruel with which to nurse your notions back to health.

Bowles provided no such "information." He did cough up a handful of hypothetical situations that might affect the timestamps, but could not provide any examples that this was the case. And --again-- he's the guy who would know.

Yes, indeed. Being the man in charge of the dispatchers he would indeed know what he was talking about and he told us exactly why the timestamps could not be relied upon. There was nothing hypothetical about it and you demanding examples is just another dishonest way of trying to discredit what Bowles said. I'm pretty sure that if Bowley had given particular examples it still wouldn't be enough.

Btw, what makes you even think that Bowles could not provide examples? Perhaps, the mere fact that he didn't provide any as part of his authoritative explanation?

I'm not arguing with Bowles. He never actually claimed that there was a clock issue on the 22nd. The best he could manage was to insinuate that something might have been wrong, based on few hypothetical situations for which he provides no substantiation.

Nobody ever said that Bowles claimed there was a clock issue on the 22nd. That's your straw man.
There were no insinuations or hypotheticals on Bowles' part. You just call his explanations that because you don't like them.

What Bowles actually did was explain how the system worked, what the purpose of it was, what frequently went wrong and that the times used by the dispatchers did not reflect the actual "real" time. As he was the man in charge of the dispatchers, and thus has first hand knowledge, I'll go with what he said over any of your denials and concoctions any time.

Your desperation to present the time stamp calls by the dispatchers as a reflection of real time (because no matter how much you deny it, that is exactly what you are trying to do) is just as obvious as it is pathetic.


« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 01:22:16 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #332 on: May 30, 2022, 10:39:14 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #333 on: May 30, 2022, 11:48:32 PM »
You know what's going to happen, right?

"Richard Smith" is going to completely ignore everything you have written and repeat the same old BS over and over again, in much the same way as Bill Brown did earlier in this thread.



You are right about that.  There are two people on this forum that I never respond to.  John I. is one of those.  The fact remains that documents from the seller confirm that a specific revolver with a specific serial number was ordered and sent via Oswald's PO box address and a known alias associated with Oswald.  That SAME revolver is the one placed into evidence by the DPD as the revolver taken from Oswald at the TT.  That is the revolver even you acknowledge was used to kill Tippit.  Your baseless "chain of custody" fantasy that the gun in evidence was somehow planted on Oswald is thus laughable.  It is proven to belong to Oswald by all the facts and circumstances.  It has the same serial number as the revolver sent to him.  There is no other such revolver ever associated with him.  It's difficult to conceive how there could even be any more evidence of this.  It was literally taken from Oswald.  He confirmed he had it with him.  There are images of it being carried from the TT while Oswald is being put in the car.  Your weak sauce is to repeat "chain of custody" over and over.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #334 on: May 31, 2022, 12:06:17 AM »
You are right about that.  There are two people on this forum that I never respond to.  John I. is one of those.  The fact remains that documents from the seller confirm that a specific revolver with a specific serial number was ordered and sent via Oswald's PO box address and a known alias associated with Oswald.  That SAME revolver is the one placed into evidence by the DPD as the revolver taken from Oswald at the TT.  That is the revolver even you acknowledge was used to kill Tippit.  Your baseless "chain of custody" fantasy that the gun in evidence was somehow planted on Oswald is thus laughable.  It is proven to belong to Oswald by all the facts and circumstances.  It has the same serial number as the revolver sent to him.  There is no other such revolver ever associated with him.  It's difficult to conceive how there could even be any more evidence of this.  It was literally taken from Oswald.  He confirmed he had it with him.  There are images of it being carried from the TT while Oswald is being put in the car.  Your weak sauce is to repeat "chain of custody" over and over.

That SAME revolver is the one placed into evidence by the DPD as the revolver taken from Oswald at the TT.

Of course it was. You said it yourself it was placed into evidence as the revolver taken from Oswald at the TT.

Just like the grey jacket (with initials on it of officers who were not in the chain of custody) was placed into evidence as the white jacket that was found at the car park.

And just as the wallet, containing the Hidell ID, was handed to Gus Rose, by an unidentified officer, as the wallet that was taken from Oswald.

Your baseless "chain of custody" fantasy that the gun in evidence was somehow planted on Oswald is thus laughable.

I never claimed that the gun now in evidence was planted on Oswald.

It is proven to belong to Oswald by all the facts and circumstances.

No, it isn't

It was literally taken from Oswald.  He confirmed he had it with him.

No he didn't.

When you come up with something new, more substantive and credible than this propaganda BS, make sure to let me know.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 12:07:35 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #335 on: May 31, 2022, 01:16:17 AM »


Your baseless "chain of custody" fantasy that the gun in evidence was somehow planted on Oswald is thus laughable.

I never claimed that the gun now in evidence was planted on Oswald.

It is proven to belong to Oswald by all the facts and circumstances.

No, it isn't

It was literally taken from Oswald.  He confirmed he had it with him.

No he didn't.

When you come up with something new, more substantive and credible than this propaganda BS, make sure to let me know.

Round and round we go.  You acknowledged in this very thread that it would be pointless to plant a gun on Oswald unless that gun had been used in the Tippit murder.  The gun in evidence is either the gun taken from Oswald or another gun planted by the DPD to frame him (per your "chain of custody" nonsense).  Now you are claiming that you never claimed the gun in evidence was planted on Oswald!!! Huh?  What does that even mean if you are claiming there is a "chain of custody" issue with the gun in evidence?  If someone didn't falsely place it into evidence as the gun found on him, then this is the gun taken from Oswald.  And per your own acknowledgement it is the gun used to kill Tippit.  Good grief.   The documents from the seller linking Oswald to the gun in evidence is "propaganda"?  Hard to understand even what that means.  That is how evidence works.  The authorities trace ownership of a gun via the documents and serial numbers to figure out who owned it.  In this case, they confirm via serial numbers and addresses that it was ordered and sent to person using a known alias associated with Oswald to an address that was his PO Box.  That wasn't even necessary in this case because the gun was in Oswald's possession when arrested.  That documentation from a third-party source is just a cherry on top of his ice cream sundae of guilt.  Just saying "no it isn't" in time honored Monty Python-style does not rebut that evidence.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 01:17:16 AM by Richard Smith »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #335 on: May 31, 2022, 01:16:17 AM »