The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Bill Chapman]

Question for you Walt:

Do we have Fritz operating the bolt on Alyea’s video? I have watched it several times but cannot discern whether or not the bolt is operated during the video or at some other point in time that wasn’t captured in these video segments. What do you say?

Carcano bolt/clip operation (Calvary version)

[Walt Cakebread]

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle. Here are the specifics:


Mr. EISENBERG.   …Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed
with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its I diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length-possibly it would be better to put
it ‘in inches rather than millimeters. The diameter is .267 inches, and a length
of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.
Mr. MCCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 millimeters?
 Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6 — 6.65 millimeters.
The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.
 

If Walt’s idea of the extractor not engaging the rim of the base of the cartridge were true, then wouldn’t the bullet stay stuck in the barrel by friction? The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets. So, theoretically, the friction fit of these type bullets would tend to take more force to overcome (than would the more typical pointed style bullets).

in the case of an unfired cartridge, it (the extractor) is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel.

This is debatable..... there are many variables and unknowns .......  But a live round easily falls out of my carcano ( I'm using an old ( 1936) Italian army cartridge )  I haven't tried the experiment with some modern hunting ammo.

In summary .....  I truly believe that the evidence ( the rifle) indicates that the carcano ( c2766) was left as a "throw down gun"
to lead the investigators into believing that Lee Oswald had fired  shots AT AT  JFK. Lee Oswald himself probably was the yokel who dropped the live round into the chamber of the carcano and then hid it beneath the pallet of books.   He was still naive enough to believe that the ruse they had tried at Walker's would work, and it might get Castro to open the door and allow him to shelter in Cuba.   Then he might be able to learn if the nuke missiles had all been removed from Cuba.

I'm 100% sure that the DPD in situ photos that have been presented at fakes....That carcano was NOT jammed between boxes of books as it seems to be in the in situ photo.   If that is a fact.....and the rifle was lying on it's side as it is seen in the Alyea   
film, then the entire tale about how Lee Oswald ran by the boxes of books at the top of the stairs is false. He allegedly and hastily performed a super human task of holding the 9 pound rifle with one hand,  by the base of the wooden stock and jammed it with the scope ( 3 1/2 inches wide) into a two inch wide crack between boxes of books.

[Jim Hawthorn]

If Fritz fully retracted the bolt, then the round could simply fall out.

All witnesses reported that Fritz DID in fact retract the bolt ...and the live round dropped out at his feet.

 

[Charles Collins]

in the case of an unfired cartridge, it (the extractor) is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel.

This is debatable..... there are many variables and unknowns .......  But a live round easily falls out of my carcano ( I'm using an old ( 1936) Italian army cartridge )  I haven't tried the experiment with some modern hunting ammo

When you experiment with your 1936 Italian army cartridge, do you hold the rifle with the muzzle end pointing up towards the sky so that gravity is the force that pulls the cartridge out of the barrel?

[Walt Cakebread]

When you experiment with your 1936 Italian army cartridge, do you hold the rifle with the muzzle end pointing up towards the sky so that gravity is the force that pulls the cartridge out of the barrel?

Yes.... I had the muzzle pointing toward the ceiling.  However .....that antique cartridge is slightly tarnished and my rifle hasn't been cleaned and oiled for some time....so the experiment is far from conclusive.....

Even if we had c2766 and the actual live round with which to perform experiments....we couldn't be certain that all conditions were exactly as they were in the TSBD that afternoon.

[Charles Collins]

Yes.... I had the muzzle pointing toward the ceiling.  However .....that antique cartridge is slightly tarnished and my rifle hasn't been cleaned and oiled for some time....so the experiment is far from conclusive.....

Even if we had c2766 and the actual live round with which to perform experiments....we couldn't be certain that all conditions were exactly as they were in the TSBD that afternoon.

Take a look at the top of page 4 of this thread. James Hackerott posted images that show the rifle being handled by Day and Fritz during the time period when it is believed that the cartridge C-141 was ejected from the rifle. Notice that the muzzle end of the rifle is pointing down towards the floor. This position would dictate that gravity would help hold the cartridge in the barrel. Do you have any evidence that shows Day and Fritz holding the rifle with the muzzle pointing up so that gravity might help pull the cartridge out of the barrel?

[Walt Cakebread]

The dent was not necessarily caused by an impact.... LOOK at the cutaway and notice that the bottom of the bottom cartridge is in contact with the elevator..... A spent shell in the bottom position could be easily dented by the elevator. when the clip is pushed down into the magazine

I truly believe that I now know how the spent shell got dented....It was used as a spent shell as the bottom cartridge in a clip of cartridges and the pressure applied to latch the clip caused the steel elevator to dent the spent shell.

Which means that the shell had been fired at some previous time and it certainly was not fired on 11/22/63.

[Walt Cakebread]

Take a look at the top of page 4 of this thread. James Hackerott posted images that show the rifle being handled by Day and Fritz during the time period when it is believed that the cartridge C-141 was ejected from the rifle. Notice that the muzzle end of the rifle is pointing down towards the floor. This position would dictate that gravity would help hold the cartridge in the barrel. Do you have any evidence that shows Day and Fritz holding the rifle with the muzzle pointing up so that gravity might help pull the cartridge out of the barrel?

C'mon Charles .....I'm sure that you know that the images ( page 4) were taken as Lt Day picked the rifle up from the floor and started to hand it to Fritz ...... This was BEFORE the rifle was handled by Fritz.