The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Jim Hawthorn]

Exactly as I see it in the gif sequence of the rifle being lifted up by Day.

[Charles Collins]

Exactly as I see it in the gif sequence of the rifle being lifted up by Day.

With the camera angle relative to the rifle in the Alyea film being very different from the angles in the blabber mouth video image, I think that it would be virtually impossible to say for certain that the angle of the handle and the distance between the knob and the scope are “exactly” the same. But you could possibly be correct. Thanks for the input.

[Walt Cakebread]

Thanks James, I do like the DVD. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Yes, the angles involved make this very challenging. The handle is clearly not fully latched (in the down position) as it appeared to me earlier in one of the images. But is it fully up as far as it can go? After looking at it again with “fresh eyes”, it appears to me to be close to fully up. And, if it is part-way down, I doubt that we would be able to discern such a small difference. Even with an actual identical rifle simulating the angles involved.

 if it is part-way down,

I can't get the bolt on my carcano to stay in a "part way down" position....Once the rectangular base of the bolt is forward of the slot in the bridge the bolt will easily rotate about six degrees down toward the fully closed and latched position ....but when it reaches that 6 degree limit is it becomes much more difficult to close and latch.   And if there is a round in the firing chamber and that round is not seated behind the extractor ....then it is impossible to close the bolt past the six degrees.   But if the round is seated in front of the extractor on the face of the bolt then the bolt will close and latch, ....but it takes some effort to close and latch the bolt to put the rifle in the ready to fire position.   

P.S.    I seriously doubt that any shooter would stop pushing the bolt forward and down, once he has extracted and ejected the spent shell from the previous round.   It would be unnatural....

[Walt Cakebread]

And I might add this image was taken just after Lt. Day picked the rifle up OF THE FLOOR ( not jammed between boxes) and BEFORE Fritz touched the rifle....


Totally wrong. The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor until Fritz ejects the cartridge. And it agrees with what both Day and Fritz testified.

The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor until Fritz ejects the cartridge.

Huh?    My eyes are playing tricks....Did you say? ...The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor      


Did Day lift it OFF THE FLOOR?....Or did he pull it out from between boxes of books?

[Charles Collins]

The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor until Fritz ejects the cartridge.

Huh?    My eyes are playing tricks....Did you say? ...The film segment is continuous from the time Day lifts it off the floor      


Did Day lift it OFF THE FLOOR?....Or did he pull it out from between boxes of books?

Did Day lift it OFF THE FLOOR?....Or did he pull it out from between boxes of books?


Both

[Dan O'meara]

I posted this image earlier in the thread, it shows that the safety is not quite aligned with the slot it is supposed to fit in to meaning the bolt handle must be up in the "fully up" position.


That image appears to me to be made after Fritz ejected the cartridge. So, it appears to me to be irrelevant. Also, if it were shown to be relevant, if the camera isn’t at a perfect 90-degree angle and aligned perfectly with the safety, then the angle involved will affect how the alignment with the wooden slot appears. This is because the wooden slot is closer to the camera than the metal safety.


The best explanation for the position of the bolt in the Alyea footage is that the bolt is jammed.

No it is not. There could be several other better explanations, including that it wasn’t pushed down by the gunman, that it was pushed upwards when lowered in between the boxes, that Day pushed it up while examining the knob for prints before he lifted the rifle off the floor, etc.. Also, if Walt’s theory were true, gravity (with the muzzle is pointing toward the floor) and friction would have held the cartridge in the barrel when Fritz pulled the bolt back. Therefore it would not have fallen to the floor.

It's clearly one of those things that cannot be decided definitively, so it comes down to the way we look at things.

That image appears to me to be made after Fritz ejected the cartridge. So, it appears to me to be irrelevant.

If that were the case the bolt would be fully retracted, this seems obvious.

if the camera isn’t at a perfect 90-degree angle and aligned perfectly with the safety, then the angle involved will affect how the alignment with the wooden slot appears.

The camera is so close to 90 degrees on that this argument is irrelevant.

There could be several other better explanations, including that it wasn’t pushed down by the gunman, that it was pushed upwards when lowered in between the boxes, that Day pushed it up while examining the knob for prints before he lifted the rifle off the floor, etc.

The movement of pushing the bolt forward is quick and fluid, taking just a fraction of a second. The idea the shooter stopped halfway through this automatic motion is a non-starter.
There is a slim possibility the bolt handle could be fully pushed up by a box but the important thing is that the bolt is also pushed back, highly unlikely in this proposed scenario.
Day does not examine the rifle for prints before picking it up. This seems made up.

I posted this video earlier in the thread. It is basically a guy firing a Carcano. After firing, the action of ejecting then slamming the bolt forward is a quick, fluid, automatic, decisive action that takes a fraction of a second. It is also a most important action, loading the bullet for the next shot. The idea of freezing during this action seems unlikely.

Also, if Walt’s theory were true, gravity (with the muzzle is pointing toward the floor) and friction would have held the cartridge in the barrel when Fritz pulled the bolt back. Therefore it would not have fallen to the floor.

I don't have to answer for Walt's theories. What I will say is that I don't believe the ejection of the live round is shown in the available Alyea footage. At no point does either man retrieve the live round from the floor or make any move resembling that.

[Walt Cakebread]

Did Day lift it OFF THE FLOOR?....Or did he pull it out from between boxes of books?


Both

It can't be both....  He was filmed grabbing it by the leather strap....and he couldn't have reached that strap if the rifle was jammed between the boxes of books...

At one point ( somewhere in his statements )... Lt Day says that he picked the rifle up by the wooden stock....But the film shows him holding it up by the leather strap.    It's obvious that he knew that he would have had to grab the wooden stock if the rifle was jammed between boxes of books.....But the Alyea film shows us clearly that he DID NOT grab the rifle by the wooden stock.

[Charles Collins]

It's clearly one of those things that cannot be decided definitively, so it comes down to the way we look at things.

That image appears to me to be made after Fritz ejected the cartridge. So, it appears to me to be irrelevant.

If that were the case the bolt would be fully retracted, this seems obvious.

if the camera isn’t at a perfect 90-degree angle and aligned perfectly with the safety, then the angle involved will affect how the alignment with the wooden slot appears.

The camera is so close to 90 degrees on that this argument is irrelevant.

There could be several other better explanations, including that it wasn’t pushed down by the gunman, that it was pushed upwards when lowered in between the boxes, that Day pushed it up while examining the knob for prints before he lifted the rifle off the floor, etc.

The movement of pushing the bolt forward is quick and fluid, taking just a fraction of a second. The idea the shooter stopped halfway through this automatic motion is a non-starter.
There is a slim possibility the bolt handle could be fully pushed up by a box but the important thing is that the bolt is also pushed back, highly unlikely in this proposed scenario.
Day does not examine the rifle for prints before picking it up. This seems made up.

I posted this video earlier in the thread. It is basically a guy firing a Carcano. After firing, the action of ejecting then slamming the bolt forward is a quick, fluid, automatic, decisive action that takes a fraction of a second. It is also a most important action, loading the bullet for the next shot. The idea of freezing during this action seems unlikely.

Also, if Walt’s theory were true, gravity (with the muzzle is pointing toward the floor) and friction would have held the cartridge in the barrel when Fritz pulled the bolt back. Therefore it would not have fallen to the floor.

I don't have to answer for Walt's theories. What I will say is that I don't believe the ejection of the live round is shown in the available Alyea footage. At no point does either man retrieve the live round from the floor or make any move resembling that.

If that were the case the bolt would be fully retracted, this seems obvious.

Not if either Fritz or Day then pushed it forward, this seems obvious.


The movement of pushing the bolt forward is quick and fluid, taking just a fraction of a second. The idea the shooter stopped halfway through this automatic motion is a non-starter.

You may not believe that it is very likely. However, you didn't just blow JFK's brains out and see it in your 4X scope, now did you?


There is a slim possibility the bolt handle could be fully pushed up by a box but the important thing is that the bolt is also pushed back, highly unlikely in this proposed scenario.

No, the important thing is that there is no easy way of knowing whether or not the bolt is also pushed back. Again, the image you are relying on was taken after Fritz ejected the live round.



Day does not examine the rifle for prints before picking it up. This seems made up.

Day testified that he first examined the rifle and determined the wooden stock was too rough to show fingerprints and looked at the knob with his glass before he picked it up. The rifle appears to be laying flat on the floor at the beginning of the Alyea film segment in which Day picks it up. How does it get to be laying flat on the floor, did Day manipulate it into that position while making these examinations? Just because this isn't on film doesn't mean it didn't happen.



I posted this video earlier in the thread. It is basically a guy firing a Carcano. After firing, the action of ejecting then slamming the bolt forward is a quick, fluid, automatic, decisive action that takes a fraction of a second. It is also a most important action, loading the bullet for the next shot. The idea of freezing during this action seems unlikely.

Does the guy in the video blow anyone's brains out? I propose that the shock of seeing that happen and the realization that no more shots are needed might just cause someone to stop in mid stream. Whether or not you think it is likely matters not a bit to me. It is still a possibility no matter how unlikely anyone might think it to be.



What I will say is that I don't believe the ejection of the live round is shown in the available Alyea footage. At no point does either man retrieve the live round from the floor or make any move resembling that.


Day lifts the rifle up off the floor and presents it to Fritz. Fritz is seen grabbing the sling with his left hand and looking towards the bolt. Then both Day and Fritz simultaneously look towards the floor as the segment ends. This indicates to me that the live round was ejected.

Either Alyea stopped the camera at that point and restarted it for the next segment, or the remainder of that segment was edited out at some point. This next segment shows that Alyea has moved to a different position and Day is examining the rifle with Fritz and his hanky in the background (this is the segment that I believe your image is taken from). We have no way of knowing what was done to the rifle between those two segments. The only segment that we can be sure that the live round was still in the rifle is the segment in which Day lifts it off the floor and presents it to Fritz for the ejection of the live round.

Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.