The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Walt Cakebread]

I'm starting to get a grip on what you're saying Walt.
Correct me if I'm wrong. In the pic below I'm not sure what the component is called picked out by the red arrow but in Charles' graphic, when the bolt is latched downwards, this component also moves downwards into the slot picked out by the yellow arrow. It appears that this component is not in line with the slot so, I'm assuming, the bolt is not fully forward and it isn't possible to latch the bolt.



What I don't understand is why a bullet, manually inserted into the chamber, would cause the bolt to be blocked.

I'm assuming, the bolt is not fully forward and it isn't possible to latch the bolt.


This is correct...But you've got the yellow red arrow pointing at the safety....That safety is about 1 3/4 inches to the rear of the bolt knob. The blue line points to the bolt knob and that knob in that position will not rotate down because the rectangular portion of the bolt hand has not moved far enough forward to clear the slot in the bridge of the rifle ( it needs to be pushed about 1/8 of an inch further forward before the bolt handle will clear the slot and rotate down . of course if there is a cartridge in the chamber that was simply dropped into the chamber that bolt will not move any further forward so the handle can be rotated down to the latched and ready to fire position.

[Dan O'meara]

I'm assuming, the bolt is not fully forward and it isn't possible to latch the bolt.


This is correct...But you've got the yellow red arrow pointing at the safety....That safety is about 1 3/4 inches to the rear of the bolt knob. The blue line points to the bolt knob and that knob in that position will not rotate down because the rectangular portion of the bolt hand has not moved far enough forward to clear the slot in the bridge of the rifle ( it needs to be pushed about 1/8 of an inch further forward before the bolt handle will clear the slot and rotate down . of course if there is a cartridge in the chamber that was simply dropped into the chamber that bolt will not move any further forward so the handle can be rotated down to the latched and ready to fire position.

Doesn't the safety rotate with the bolt handle when it is latched down and fit into the slot picked out by the yellow arrow?

[Walt Cakebread]

There's no way, in my opinion, that a shell with the bullet still inside it, could be deformed so badly by the elevator.

LATER EDIT: What would be the point of loading a spent shell?

in my opinion, that a shell with the bullet still inside it, could be deformed so badly by the elevator.

Good thinkin..I agree a live cartridge with the bullet seated would not be dented by the elevator...But an empy brass could easily be dented...

What would be the point of loading a spent shell?

I've done it myself.... In experimenting I don't like to use live ammo....So I've loaded a clip with spent brass .

[Walt Cakebread]

Doesn't the safety rotate with the bolt handle when it is latched down and fit into the slot picked out by the yellow arrow?

Yes, that's correct, Dan

[John Iacoletti]

As I recall, the “gungeek” videos were done as a direct result of somebody from this forum asking him that question years ago in response to Walt making the same claim that it couldn’t be done. I believe there is a part 3 where he does it with a full clip.

[Dan O'meara]

Yes, that's correct, Dan

Thought so.
I was just pointing out that in the pic below the safety isn't quite lined up with the slot it is supposed to fit into. For those without an "expert eye" it's a good visual representation of the fact the bolt is not fully forward and that it is not possible to latch the bolt.




In the video below I was struck by how quick and fluid the movement of latching the bolt is. It doesn't seem to be something you'd stop half way through doing as Charles suggested. I'm also sceptical of the suggestion that the bolt handle was knocked upwards and backwards by placing the rifle in it's hiding place.

[Jim Hawthorn]

I'm sorry Jim...You don't WANT to follow along with my statements, you want to BELIEVE what suits your theory.

I've said over and over that the cartridge MUST be seated on the face of the bolt BEFORE the cartridge is in the chamber. IF the cartridge is in the chamber (as I've always stated was the case when the rifle was found ) then the front of the bolt is SURROUNDED by the rear of the firing chamber and the extractor CANNOT cam up and over the rim of the cartridge that is in the chamber.

Let me repeat what I've always said....The yokel who placed the live round in the carcano didn't know that the bolt won't close and latch if you merely drop a cartridge into the firing chamber.   The yokel didn't know that, and he did in fact drop a live cartridge into the chamber and attempt to close and latch the bolt.    The bolt hit the back of the cartridge in the chamber and the bolt could not be latched. (The extractor would not cam over the rim of the cartridge )  The bolt was stopped in the exact place that it is seen in the Alyea film.    Thus the yokel simply hid the rifle beneath the pallet of books with the bolt unlatched ( the rifle was NOT ready to fire as the liars claimed.)  We can be sure that the extractor was not behind the rim of the cartridge because the live round simply fell out by the force of gravity and NOT by being pulled out by the extractor, because the cartridge did not strike the ejector and fly away from the rifle....It simply fell on the floor.

Bear with me Walt, I just don't understand how the round could have simply dropped out if the bolt was fully (or a quarter of an inch short of being) forward, as we see that it was in the Alyea film:

[Charles Collins]

Bear with me Walt, I just don't understand how the round could have simply dropped out if the bolt was fully (or a quarter of an inch short of being) forward, as we see that it was in the Alyea film:

Jim, you bring up a very interesting point. And I agree that it is questionable whether or not the round would be held in place by friction. After all, the diameter of the bullet is slightly larger than the bore diameter of the rifle. Here are the specifics:


Mr. EISENBERG.   …Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed
with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its I diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length-possibly it would be better to put
it ‘in inches rather than millimeters. The diameter is .267 inches, and a length
of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.
Mr. MCCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 millimeters?
 Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6 — 6.65 millimeters.
The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.
 

If Walt’s idea of the extractor not engaging the rim of the base of the cartridge were true, then wouldn’t the bullet stay stuck in the barrel by friction? The extractor is normally needed to extract the empty cartridge after it has expanded due to the explosion of the powder charge. But in the case of an unfired cartridge, it is also needed to extract the cartridge due to the friction fit of the bullet in the barrel. And the long parallel sides of these bullets create more surface area that contacts the rifle barrel than the more common pointed style bullets. So, theoretically, the friction fit of these type bullets would tend to take more force to overcome (than would the more typical pointed style bullets).