Re: Motorcycle Policeman Hargis said Limo stopped !

[John Iacoletti]

  Zapruder thought the president's car was was coming when he saw the motorcycles turning onto Elm street. He shut his camera off when he discovered that it wasn't right there it was farther back than he thought.  I have known this since the first time I saw the Zapruder film that the reason he stopped filming was to save film.

You mean to say that you know what Zapruder did better than Zapruder himself?  That's some arrogance.

[Mitch Todd]

     Why not get yourself up-to-speed on Brugioni/2 briefing board sessions, THEN express your opinion? 1st off, why was Brugioni examining an 8MM Z Film from which still frames were used for briefing boards , vs. the following night a 16MM Z Film was examined from which still frames were used for briefing boards?

I did, years ago. The best thing you can say about the briefing boards is that they may have made two sets. Attempts to read something else into that possibility are nothing more than that: an attempt to read external meaning in. Either way, there is nothing in the Brugioni story that proves fakery.

[Ray Mitcham]

You mean to say that you know what Zapruder did better than Zapruder himself?  That's some arrogance.

Zap ruder.
"Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street."

If Zapruder wanted to get "it coming in from Houston Street", why would he stop filming?

[Royell Storing]

Zap ruder.
"Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street."

If Zapruder wanted to get "it coming in from Houston Street", why would he stop filming?

         The background images that were revealed as the JFK Limo turned onto Elm and began traveling down the street is why this scene mandated being CUT from the film. The Dal Tex Bld was included in this Z Film segment, as was the Tall, Wide, Bright Orange Stripped, Cleaning Truck which was sitting at the curb just outside the front door of the Dal Tex Bld. And don't forget eyewitnesses seeing the JFK Limo coming close to bumping/jumping the curb as it turned onto Elm St.  Zapruder would have needed a wide Pan Left of his camera in order to follow the exaggerated JFK Limo left turn.  By the time action resumes in the Current Zapruder Film, the JFK Limo has straightened out, is centered inside the center lane of traffic, and is approaching the Stemmons Sign.   

[Jack Trojan]

Zap ruder.
"Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street."

If Zapruder wanted to get "it coming in from Houston Street", why would he stop filming?

Funny how that "damage" to the film happened exactly when Zapruder supposedly stopped the camera. The film would have shown the limo slowing down to a near stop and curbing out as it navigated the turn onto Elm, a mere 40 feet from Oswald who couldn't believe JFK was being served up to him like a sitting duck on a silver platter. Even his wonky scope couldn't miss.  But he was so mesmerized that he waited another 8 seconds before taking the 1st shot.

Whatever actually happened during the turn onto Elm has been scrubbed from the Z film.

[Matt Grantham]

It only really implies that the image Dino was being shown didn't quite look the way he remembered it did when he last set eyes on it 50 years before. Could that mean it was altered? Possibly, but you need something stronger that "hey, I don't remember it this way." Especially when one of those "I don't remember that" things resulted from Janney telling Brugioni something that simply isn't true.

Now for a kind of thought experiment:

When you think of frame 313, what image comes up in your minds eye?

I'll bet your brain is now full of the terrible picture of John Kennedy's head enveloped in a horrific halo of bloody mist. Maybe the image includes Mrs Kennedy's puzzled face obscured by said halo. And maybe some of the limo. Extra credit if you saw Greer still looking around behind him.

I'll bet you aren't thinking that the top 80% of the frame is an image of the grassy lawn between Elm and Main, or that Toni Foster and her coat appears mid-stride left of center, walking across it. Some people well-versed in the film remember seeing Clint Hill about to catch up to the bumper, but he doesn't appear until about frame 330.

I'll also bet Brugioni is just as liable to the same self-selection process that blots out Toni and the lawn to concentrate on the limousine proper, and the awful deed being played out there.

For that matter, they made enlargements of the Zap film for the briefing boards. I'd suspect that they cropped out a lot of the image to concentrate on JFK and the limousine. That image of 313 would definitely put the "scatter" well up in the resulting image.

 When experts have a recollection of a significant event those statements stand as a facts in the same objective manner as everyone else with equal credibility as a witness So when you said the Z film Brugioni saw was not the film we see later you are either caught up in a semantic fallacy or simply positing that witness accounts are open for your personal contextualization

[Mitch Todd]

When experts have a recollection of a significant event those statements stand as a facts in the same objective manner as everyone else with equal credibility as a witness So when you said the Z film Brugioni saw was not the film we see later you are either caught up in a semantic fallacy or simply positing that witness accounts are open for your personal contextualization

You seem to be confused. I never said that "the Z film Brugioni saw was not the film we see later" in any way, shape, or form.

What I am trying to get across is that Brugioni didn't say that he thought the Zapruder film had been altered. That asserrtion is a projection (pun intended, just so you know) generated by the hopefully faithful z-film alterationistas. All he said was that the explosion in frame 313 didn't extend as high up into the frame as he remembered. He was about 90 years old at the time of the interview, and he was trying to recall something that he saw on day 50 years before, so his recall isn't the best evidence for anything. I have pointed out here that, if you do the photogrammetry, the "scatter" (as he called it) in the existent frame reaches a good 40" above the top of JFK's head, which places it in the 3'-4' range that Dino remembered. I also advanced, for the sake of argument, two entirely reasonable explanations that would explain why he remembered that particular image a certain way without needing to rely on alteration. They seem to be reasonable enough that nobody has objected to them. To me, it's significant that he doesn't seem to have an issue with what is in the image rather than where it is.

You are correct that Bruglioni's statement is itself a fact. I mean, Janney recorded it! But that's not the point here. The point is whether his memory would be sharp enough for it to be considered a significant factor 50 years after the fact. Some might want to believe that it would be so, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

You seem to be confused. I never said that "the Z film Brugioni saw was not the film we see later" in any way, shape, or form.

What I am trying to get across is that Brugioni didn't say that he thought the Zapruder film had been altered. That asserrtion is a projection (pun intended, just so you know) generated by the hopefully faithful z-film alterationistas. All he said was that the explosion in frame 313 didn't extend as high up into the frame as he remembered. He was about 90 years old at the time of the interview, and he was trying to recall something that he saw on day 50 years before, so his recall isn't the best evidence for anything. I have pointed out here that, if you do the photogrammetry, the "scatter" (as he called it) in the existent frame reaches a good 40" above the top of JFK's head, which places it in the 3'-4' range that Dino remembered. I also advanced, for the sake of argument, two entirely reasonable explanations that would explain why he remembered that particular image a certain way without needing to rely on alteration. They seem to be reasonable enough that nobody has objected to them. To me, it's significant that he doesn't seem to have an issue with what is in the image rather than where it is.

You are correct that Bruglioni's statement is itself a fact. I mean, Janney recorded it! But that's not the point here. The point is whether his memory would be sharp enough for it to be considered a significant factor 50 years after the fact. Some might want to believe that it would be so, but I wouldn't count on it.

It seems to me obvious that the key point in his observation is that the explosion he saw was NOT to the rear of the end head but the top right of head. Just as we see in the films today.

Whether that explosion was, as he remembered it, higher or lower in the Z-film is a, at best, ancillary matter.

If he said the explosion was to the rear of the head and not the top/right then the alterationists would have something to grab onto.