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Author Topic: Succession  (Read 11983 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Succession
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2022, 06:40:04 PM »
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Surprisingly, I am just now getting around to reading William Manchester’s book, “The Death of a President”. It is a fascinating book to read. I am only part way through it but the accounts of the mass confusion that occurred on 11/22/63 are amazing. Anyway, here is a snip from the book about succession of the Vice President to the office of President. I was surprised to learn that the way that has evolved wasn’t the intent of the founding fathers. And learning why LBJ wanted to take the oath of office in Dallas (even delaying their flight back to Washington DC for it) solved one of the mysteries of that day that I have wondered about for almost sixty years. I was taught that the VP automatically became the President. Now, I feel like Paul Harvey has told “the rest of the story”.


Had Vice President Johnson assumed the Office of President at 1 P.M. in Parkland, there would have been no void. The transition would have been immediate. The fact that he failed to do so may be traced to the riddle of Presidential succession, which had confounded constitutional scholars for 122 years. The American Constitution, that imperfect classic, specifies in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, that “In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the Vice President”—a solecism which should have made the Founding Fathers blush. What is meant by “the Same”? If the phrase to which it refers is “Powers and Duties,” then the Vice President remains Vice President, exercising those powers and performing those duties until the people can choose a new President. We know now that this was the desire of the men who framed the Constitution. The notes of James Madison, published long after his death, provide a cogent record of the secret deliberations of 1787. The founders never intended that any man should become Chief Executive unless he had been elected to that office. The wording they approved stated that in the event of the death of an incumbent the Vice President should serve as acting President “until another President be chosen.” This unequivocal provision was then dropped by the Constitutional Convention’s five-man committee on style, which made constitutional interpretation the art of the impossible. It is worth noting that the most perceptive analysis of the two versions of II, 1, 5 was written by the sixty-eighth Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy, in 1961.1 Robert Kennedy concluded that it was the sense of the Convention that should a President die in office “merely the powers and duties devolve on the Vice President, not the office itself.”

 But the Madison papers appeared too late. The second possible antecedent for “the Same”—“the said Office”—had become hallowed by precedent. In 1841 William Henry Harrison caught cold during his inauguration and became the first American Chief Executive to die in office. His Vice President, John Tyler, learned the news while playing marbles with his children in Williamsburg, Virginia. Tyler, who didn’t know about Madison’s notes, never doubted that he was entitled to occupy “the said Office.” Several eminent American statesmen dissented, notably Henry Clay and former President John Quincy Adams, who, on April 16, 1841, seven days after Tyler’s inaugural address, made acid reference in his diary to “Mr. Tyler, who styles himself President… and not Vice-President acting as President.” Tyler, however, had powerful allies, chiefly Secretary of State Daniel Webster, and he had already moved into the White House. Time and custom were working for him. By the end of June even Adams was calling him “Mr. President.”

 During the next century death elevated six more Vice Presidents—Millard Fillmore, Andrew Johnson, Chester Arthur, Theodore Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, and Harry Truman—and the claims of each to “the said Office” were uncontested. The Tyler precedent held, despite grumblings that few running mates to emerge from conventions were big enough to lead the ticket. Roosevelt and Truman excepted, the six were an uninspiring and undistinguished group. In the words of one scholar, the Vice Presidency was “a comfortable sinecure with which to honor some of the country’s more able politicians.” The qualifications of the second office in the land bore little relationship to the demands of the first. Nevertheless the silent engine of succession was still there, waiting to be used. Tyler had led the way. Succession had, in effect, become automatic.

 Or almost automatic. Tyler did something else which acquired a special significance in Dallas. His action arose from the realization that men like Adams were certain to contest his right to occupy the White House. When he picked up his marbles in Williamsburg, convinced in his own mind that he was already the tenth President of the United States, he was aware that Article II, Section 1, Clause 7, of the Constitution stipulated that a Chief Executive, “before he enter on the Execution of his Office,” must swear or affirm his support of that Constitution. Although he had already done that as Vice President, he resolved to make assurance doubly sure. Leading the Cabinet to the Indian Queen Hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue, he repeated the pledge on April 6, 1841. It was administered by Chief Justice William Cranch of the District of Columbia Circuit Court, who immediately afterward signed an affidavit setting forth the legal situation. The document declared that Harrison’s successor deemed himself qualified to take over “without any other oath than that which he has taken as Vice President,” but that he had asked to be sworn in again “as doubts may arise, and for greater caution.”

 John Tyler has much to answer for. Apart from annexing Texas and taming the Seminoles he did little for his country during the next four years, and in tightening his grip on the Presidency at the Indian Queen Hotel he had left an exasperating constitutional trap for Fillmore, Johnson, Arthur, Roosevelt, Coolidge, and Truman, all of whom fell into it. No one remembered Cranch’s affidavit. The document was filed away in the National Archives and forgotten. But everyone recalled the dramatic oath, and each of the six men who were to stand in Tyler’s shoes felt obliged to repeat it. An act undertaken “for greater caution” was magnified out of all proportion. The ceremonies, conducted while the grieving republic mourned its fallen leaders, became folklore, and the very Bibles on which the new Chief Executives rested their hands were integrated into the myth. The Constitution, of course, mentions the Bible nowhere.

 In time of crisis the pull of myth increases tenfold. On November 22, 1963, the typical American, like the typical correspondent in 101–102, was under the impression that the oath was mandatory. He still is. His leaders (though lamentably few of them have thought the matter through) are divided. Speaker John McCormack, who with Kennedy’s death became next in line of succession, echoes the popular misconception. He thinks Johnson had to be sworn in as soon as possible “because the country had to have a President.” Chief Justice Warren agrees. The oath is needed in such circumstances, he argues, to put the new leader’s dedication to the Constitution on record. Reminded that Johnson had taken that vow at the Kennedy inaugural, he replies, “But he hadn’t taken it as President.”2

 The weight of informed opinion lies on the other side. Barefoot Sanders, who was the U.S. Attorney on the spot, thinks Johnson became President the moment Kennedy died. So does Robert Kennedy; so does Nicholas de B. Katzenbach, who followed Kennedy as the sixty-ninth Attorney General. Hubert H. Humphrey, whom Johnson chose as his own Vice President, declares emphatically, “A Vice President becomes President when there is no President. Later, when he takes the oath, he puts on the cloak of office. But that act is purely symbolic.” Former President Eisenhower takes the strongest position of all. In the view of Eisenhower—who scorns the second oath—Johnson became Chief Executive the moment it was obvious that Kennedy was dying; that is, before Kemp Clark pronounced him dead. The former President believes that Johnson was entitled to sign legislation at any time after 12:30 Central Standard Time. Had a national emergency arisen between then and 2:38 P.M., when he took that second oath, and had Johnson failed to act, Eisenhower holds that he would have been derelict in his duty and subject to impeachment.

 The cadre of professionals who serve the Presidency is similarly split, though they, too, are inclined to dismiss the oath as inconsequential. Because the Secret Service White House Detail lacked forceful leadership on November 22, individual agents are vague. Former Chief Wilson is a more vigorous witness than any of them. When Franklin Roosevelt died, Wilson left one man with Mrs. Roosevelt and immediately reassigned all others, including those who had been guarding the President’s grandchildren, to Truman. “As far as the Service is concerned,” Wilson declares, “when a President dies the Vice President becomes President at once, and all protection goes to him and his family.” Colonel McNally of the White House Communications Agency concurs: “It sounds coldblooded, but the instant President Kennedy died, communications-wise he disappeared off the face of the earth. Oath of office or not, Lyndon Johnson was President in our eyes and head of the government.”

 It is improbable that Johnson had considered these complex issues before a blaze of gunfire confronted him with them. Over a year and a half afterward he informed this writer that it was his opinion that “the Vice President becomes President immediately upon the death of the President. He is obligated thereafter to take the oath of office, but there is no lapse in the powers of the Presidency.” Having taken the second oath, he perhaps felt an obligation to defend it. Otherwise the statement conforms with judicial opinion. However, it was made after the full ramifications of the question had been laid before him. In Dallas, he conceded, he had felt differently. Although “immediately aware” of his new responsibilities, the “full realization,” the “subjective identification” of himself as Chief Executive, “came gradually.”

 Perhaps anticipation of the consequences of a President’s death should be obligatory for Vice Presidents, but it wouldn’t come easily. There is little evidence that Johnson’s seven predecessors had given the matter much thought. The attitude of national politicians toward the White House is highly ambivalent; they simultaneously crave it and recoil from it. Vice Presidents, like Presidents, are loath to dwell upon the fact that they are a heartbeat away from the executive mansion, and when the beat suddenly stops they are dumfounded. “I don’t know if any of you fellows ever had a load of hay or a bull fall on him,” Truman told reporters on April 14, 1945, “but last night the whole weight of the moon and stars fell on me.”

 Truman’s reaction should be mulled over if the Dallas transition is to be put in perspective. When the news arrived from Warm Springs, with which he had no connection, he was in Washington. His predecessor had died peacefully. There had been no violence. Johnson’s plight, on the other hand, was ghastly. The President had been visiting the Vice President’s home grounds, and in twenty-four hours the Connally-Yarborough feud had transformed the trip into a Johnsonian disaster. At 12:29 P.M. his career was at a low ebb. He sat sluggishly in the back seat of his convertible, insensitive to the cheers around him, seeking refuge in the blare of a dashboard radio. His prestige had come apart, and for the moment he had apparently abandoned hope of reassembling it. Then, sixty seconds later, the elected President and his lady lay in a welter of blood, and Lyndon Johnson was the leader of the nation.

 In the moment it takes to drive over a crack of gray Texas asphalt his life and his country’s history had been transformed. He had no way of knowing why it had happened, but he had been a political creature since youth. The instant his antennae began to sweep the scene he had to deal with the stupendous fact that in the eyes of the United States and the world beyond, a Texas murder had put a Texan in power. The catastrophe had struck him harder than any other man in Dallas. If he was mesmerized, if some of his actions were incomprehensible, the nature of that unprecedented shock has to be borne in mind constantly, and to recapture its impact on him the reel of events must be wound back to 12:36 P.M., when Lady Bird, after a frightened glance at the pink blur at SS 100 X, darted into the hospital behind the wedge of agents surrounding her husband.



It is improbable that Johnson had considered these complex issues before a blaze of gunfire confronted him with them. Over a year and a half afterward he informed this writer that it was his opinion that “the Vice President becomes President immediately upon the death of the President.


Johnson had gone to Robert Kennedy several months before the assassination and asked RFK who was the AG for a "clarification" about who would become the president in the event the president would die or become unable to carry out the duties of the office.     RFK told him that John Mc Cormack The Speaker of the House(JW Mc Cormack)  would ASSUME the duties of the president and act as president UNTIL A NEW PRESIDENT COULD BE DULY ELECTED.     

THAT'S   The way the founding fathers intended....  Only an idiot would fail to see that if the VP automatically became the president upon the death of the president.....That would open the door to the presidency  for any unscrupulous AH that lusted for the office of the President.   

The Founding fathers were not STUPID.....They said that the president MUST be ELECTED to the office of the President.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 10:41:29 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: Succession
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2022, 06:40:04 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Succession
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2022, 06:53:25 PM »
I don’t remember where I read it, but it has been written that the Kennedys were frightened about what might happen if LBJ ever became President. And I find this little tidbit from the quote I posted above quite interesting:

It is worth noting that the most perceptive analysis of the two versions of II, 1, 5 was written by the sixty-eighth Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy, in 1961.1 Robert Kennedy concluded that it was the sense of the Convention that should a President die in office “merely the powers and duties devolve on the Vice President, not the office itself.”

So, my question is: Why do you think that Robert Kennedy would be interested in this subject at that particular time?   :-\

Not sure in what context RFK would have become "interested" to prompt an opinion in 1961 but he was the AG and that is a Constitutional issue. This was a function of the Constitution whose language left some ambiguity at the time on the issue and that was one view held until it was resolved in 1967 by the 25th amendment.  I don't believe that it is any secret that RFK disliked LBJ, opposed his selection as VP, and that both he and members of the elitist JFK administration viewed LBJ with contempt as a sort of country bumpkin.  Ironic since LBJ was the political genius while the Harvard educated Ivy League types of the JFK administration were all amateurs or worse.  According to Caro, LBJ was not asked to participate in many meetings as VP and was rarely asked his opinion.  He was relegated mostly to unimportant matters.  I don't believe RFK or anyone suggested that LBJ did not become the president, however, following the assassination even if they didn't like it.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Succession
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2022, 06:54:42 PM »
I don’t remember where I read it, but it has been written that the Kennedys were frightened about what might happen if LBJ ever became President. And I find this little tidbit from the quote I posted above quite interesting:

It is worth noting that the most perceptive analysis of the two versions of II, 1, 5 was written by the sixty-eighth Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy, in 1961.1 Robert Kennedy concluded that it was the sense of the Convention that should a President die in office “merely the powers and duties devolve on the Vice President, not the office itself.”

So, my question is: Why do you think that Robert Kennedy would be interested in this subject at that particular time?   :-\

Why do you think that Robert Kennedy would be interested in this subject at that particular time?   :-\


Because LBJ ( who was conniving) had asked him for clarification about the accession to the office of the President.

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Re: Succession
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2022, 06:54:42 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Succession
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2022, 07:06:19 PM »
Why do you think that Robert Kennedy would be interested in this subject at that particular time?   :-\


Because LBJ ( who was conniving) had asked him for clarification about the accession to the office of the President.

You are suggesting that LBJ was planning the assassination of JFK in order to become president and he went to RFK (i.e. President's own brother) for legal advice on how to pull this off?  And when he was told something different, he did it anyway.  LOL.  My only recollection of LBJ asking RFK's advice on the topic came AFTER the assassination about taking the oath of office. 

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Succession
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2022, 07:14:10 PM »
I believe the most readable "general" history of the assassination by a best-selling literary author is Jim Bishop's "The Day Kennedy Was Shot", published in 1968. Mrs. Kennedy seems to have thought "The Death of a President" published the year before was to be the final word or "official" history. Jackie was even offended by Bishop's choice of book title with the word "shot" in it. Yep, the same Mrs. Kennedy who in 1968 married this for money:





It appears that both JFK and Onassis liked cigars. I read in Manchester’s book that JFK was smoking a Cuban cigar on Air Force One on the way from Washington DC to Texas. Yep, even though Cuban cigars were banned for most folks in the USA, JFK reportedly had a stash of them from before the ban…
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 07:16:42 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Succession
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2022, 07:14:10 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Succession
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2022, 08:00:59 PM »
It’s not that Lyndon thought that the oath was necessary — it’s that he wanted the photo op.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 02:58:25 PM by John Iacoletti »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Succession
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2022, 10:56:20 PM »
You are suggesting that LBJ was planning the assassination of JFK in order to become president and he went to RFK (i.e. President's own brother) for legal advice on how to pull this off?  And when he was told something different, he did it anyway.  LOL.  My only recollection of LBJ asking RFK's advice on the topic came AFTER the assassination about taking the oath of office.

  You've demonstrated many times that your "recollection" of events is very poor.

You are suggesting that LBJ was planning the assassination of JFK in order to become president and he went to RFK (i.e. President's own brother) for legal advice on how to pull this off?


The wily conniving, and ruthless LBJ was merely attempting to get RFK to rule that The VP becomes the President in the event the President dies while in office..... (And yes LBJ was conniving to get into the drivers seat, months before the coup d etat)    Harry Truman became president when FDR died.   And in reality Truman should not have become the President.

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Succession
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2022, 03:40:18 PM »
  You've demonstrated many times that your "recollection" of events is very poor.

You are suggesting that LBJ was planning the assassination of JFK in order to become president and he went to RFK (i.e. President's own brother) for legal advice on how to pull this off?


The wily conniving, and ruthless LBJ was merely attempting to get RFK to rule that The VP becomes the President in the event the President dies while in office..... (And yes LBJ was conniving to get into the drivers seat, months before the coup d etat)    Harry Truman became president when FDR died.   And in reality Truman should not have become the President.

Can you provide us with the source of your claim instead of just repeating it?  And why would LBJ need a "ruling" from RFK to become president?  You seem to be saying that he asked for such a ruling but then got a contrary opinion but then carried on anyway.  None of that makes sense.  Even before the assassination, there was consideration in the early 1960s for clarifying any ambiguity in the Constitution regarding succession of the VP to the presidency.  The JFK assassination prompted the 25th Amendment to make that clarification.  That is more likely the basis for RFK's opinion. 

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Re: Succession
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2022, 03:40:18 PM »