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Author Topic: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy  (Read 8757 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2023, 10:40:36 PM »
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So, you start the whole shebang off by preemptively demanding that when Euins used the term "bald spot", he could have only meant a circular patch at the crown. Then you chide Jerry and I for "decid[ing]what the witness is 'really' saying". Immediately after which, you follow up by telling us what Euins "really" said. I assume that you don't see the glaring problem with your line of argument here. 

You then take Euins' answer to Specter's question out of context trying to prove your point. When Euins pointed to a location above his hairline, it was in response to Specter's question, "How far back did the bald spot on his head go? When answering the question "how far back does it extend?" the measuring begins from the front.

~Grin~

Simply extraordinary how someone can struggle with the basic meaning of the word "spot"!

A receding hairline is not a white or bald spot.

The below is an example of a white or bald spot:



 Thumb1:

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2023, 10:40:36 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2023, 11:18:47 PM »
So, you start the whole shebang off by preemptively demanding that when Euins used the term "bald spot", he could have only meant a circular patch at the crown.

There you go again.  Dan didn't say anything about a circular patch at the crown.

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2023, 01:26:46 AM »
There you go again.  Dan didn't say anything about a circular patch at the crown.

That's the impression he's been giving me for the beginning. If it's not a receding hairline, as Dan argues, then there's not much left in terms of alternatives. Either it's the usual crown patch associated with male pattern baldness, or the guy was just randomly shaving patches of hair off of his head for giggles.

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2023, 01:26:46 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2023, 10:52:23 PM »
They wouldn't tilt their head much one way or the other. Jerry's photo does a good job of showing that. And not enough to make something suddenly appear or disappear.

You must surely be talking about the picture Charles posted. Jerry posted a pic that i didn't think represented the situation on the 6th floor, so I posted a picture recreating the situation in the SN, which I felt was a more realistic representation of the situation. Unsurprisingly, Jerry disagreed and posted the picture of the rifle on the tripod. It was even more unrealistic than the first pic he posted!

I assume you agree that someone using the MC found on the 6th floor wouldn't have to tilt their head to the left.
Some people tilt their head when firing a rifle and some don't.

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So, you start the whole shebang off by preemptively demanding that when Euins used the term "bald spot", he could have only meant a circular patch at the crown. Then you chide Jerry and I for "decid[ing]what the witness is 'really' saying". Immediately after which, you follow up by telling us what Euins "really" said. I assume that you don't see the glaring problem with your line of argument here. 

I don't "preemptively demand" anything and I mentioned nothing about a "circular patch at the crown." Alan Ford has posted a picture of a man who appears to have a distinctive bald spot a few inches behind his hairline, not on the crown of his head.
I simply point out that a bald spot and a receding hairline are two different things. And they are, by definition. One is hair loss around the temple area at the hairline. The other is hair loss on top of the head, behind the hairline.
I don't "chide" anyone. I correctly point out that it is not up to you (or Jerry) to decided that Euins meant one thing when he said another.
And you're correct, I did tell you what Euins really said - bald spot. He's says the same thing time and time again. At no point does he refer to a receding hairline.
I am unaware of the problem with this line of argument. As there isn't one.
But are you aware of the problem with your line of argument?

To add to the problems with your line of argument is that Euin's describes a "white" bald spot:

"No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell."

"A white spot on his head".
Yet Euins couldn't confidently say if the man was black or white.
If he was referring to a receding hairline he would have been referring to the colour of the side of the man's face. However, if Euins couldn't see the man's face from his position and could only make out the white bald spot on top of the man's head, this would explain why he could discern the colour of the bald spot but not the man's face. Perhaps.
And, just to speculate, if the assassin shooting right handed his face in profile would have been obvious, but if he were left handed the rifle would have obscured a lot of his face.

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You then take Euins' answer to Specter's question out of context trying to prove your point. When Euins pointed to a location above his hairline, it was in response to Specter's question, "How far back did the bald spot on his head go? When answering the question "how far back does it extend?" the measuring begins from the front.

I've not taken anything out of context.
When asked how far back the bald spot went, Euins points to an area a few inches behind his own hairline. This is again confirmation that he is talking about a bald spot - a spot of baldness on the man's head somewhere behind his hairline. This is what a bald spot is.
You, on the other hand, have created a brand new context by reinterpreting Specter's question as "how far back does it extend?"

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Finally, you appear to assume that when Euins describes the rifleman tilting his head, it must either be left or right. It doesn't seem to occur to you that Euins meant that the mans head was tilted forwards. That latter is what he appears to describe:

Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?

The key phrase here is "looking down the rifle". Euins gives his description of the man during the shooting, as the shots were being fired. In this case the phrase "looking down the rifle" strongly indicates, to me at least, that the assassin is looking down the length of the rifle as he is aiming it at his target. I have absolutely no idea how tilting his head forwards would reveal anything to Euins who would be looking at the assassin in profile.

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Finally, you say that "the point Euins was making was that this feature only became visible when the shooter was looking 'down the rifle.'" I don't see where he indicates that "this feature only became visible" because of anything. Where does he say this?

Where does he say this?
I've already posted where he says it:

Mr. Euins: All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this.
Mr. Specter: Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?
Mr. Euins: Yes, sir: and I could see the spot on his head.
Mr. Specter: How would you describe that man for us?
Mr. Euins: I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see was the spot and his hand.



Euins is stating quite clearly that he could see the bald spot because the shooter had his head in a certain position while "looking down the rifle". My thinking on this is that if Euins could see the bald spot because the shooter was holding his head in a certain way while he was looking down the rifle, indicates the shooter was tilting his head to the left while he was taking aim. I can think of no other plausible explanation. Particularly as this description is given while the shooting is taking place.




Online Mitch Todd

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2023, 04:07:25 AM »
You must surely be talking about the picture Charles posted. Jerry posted a pic that i didn't think represented the situation on the 6th floor, so I posted a picture recreating the situation in the SN, which I felt was a more realistic representation of the situation. Unsurprisingly, Jerry disagreed and posted the picture of the rifle on the tripod. It was even more unrealistic than the first pic he posted!

I meant the photo Jerry posted in reply #1. Whether or not Jerry posted it or Charles posted it, the photo shows someone using correct form: the rifle's butt against the shoulder and the supporting arm properly bent. The photo Charles posted shows the presumably-Oswald doing the same thing. The image you posted shows an actor holding the rifle with the butt against his chest and the forestock lying on a box. That's unbelievably awful technique. But really, it's just a publicity still from a work of fiction, and has no purpose here.


I assume you agree that someone using the MC found on the 6th floor wouldn't have to tilt their head to the left.
Some people tilt their head when firing a rifle and some don't.

I agree that non one shooting any rifle would be tilting their head so much that a "bald" spot that wouldn't normally appear suddenly would. That's about it.

More to come.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2023, 08:41:26 AM by Mitch Todd »

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2023, 04:07:25 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2023, 07:12:38 PM »
The first picture showed a man with his head on the right side of the rifle. It was to visualize what I thought your OP was describing. Of course there's no boxes, window frame, or camera angle identical to Euins.

You then posted a photo of a gunman with his rifle resting on top of the boxes. He's not aiming and I guess he's trying to trick-shoot at passing ducks. The tripod picture I posted was merely to show that some angling of the rifle was required. The man in the picture would have to bring his eye near to the scope or sights to reenact a firing position. So I posted a smaller picture of a man holding and aiming a Carcano model rifle.

So far, your pictures show a gunman using the boxes by having a rifle resting on the top of the box so he can be "looking down" on it. This is "realistic" to you. Your other picture show some unrelated guy in the parking lot with a sun glint on his slicked hair (popular then because of people like Dean Martin and Desi Arnez).

Obviously, Jerry, the pic you posted had nothing to do with the situation on the 6th floor that day.
I tried to find a pic that at least represented that situation.
I would very much like to have found a pic of someone actually firing a rifle from that position but it seems hard to do.
Considering how important this moment is historically, I would have assumed it would have been easier to find a clear representation of a shooter firing from that position with the boxes etc.
The point is to compare what would have been visible to someone in Euins position that day with his testimony of what he saw.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2023, 07:27:28 PM »
I meant the photo Jerry posted in reply #1. Whether or not Jerry posted it or Charles posted it, the photo shows someone using correct form: the rifle's butt against the shoulder and the supporting arm properly bent. The photo Charles posted shows the presumably-Oswald doing the same thing. The image you posted shows an actor holding the rifle with the butt against his chest and the forestock lying on a box. That's unbelievably awful technique. But really, it's just a publicity still from a work of fiction, and has no purpose here.

As I was saying to Jerry, I'm having trouble locating a good image representing the shooter that day.

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I agree that non one shooting any rifle would be tilting their head so much that a "bald" spot that wouldn't normally appear suddenly would. That's about it.

Euins' testimony is of tremendous importance.
He was an eye-witness watching the shooter as the assassination was in progress.
Part of his testimony concerns a white bald spot on the shooter's head that becomes visible to Euins because the shooter is holding his head in a certain way as he is looking down the rifle, that is to say, while he is taking aim.
The only plausible interpretation (IMO) of this testimony is that the shooter is tilting his head to the left as he is taking aim, during the shooting.
The importance of this is that it rules out the MC as the assassination weapon,

But you don't think someone would be tilting their head enough to reveal a bald spot.
You ignore Euins' testimony because you think something different.
You don't even attempt to demonstrate why this is not possible.
You seem to be under the impression it's enough for you to simply state this opinion and "that's about it".
As far as an approach to research is concerned I would have to say that's an unbelievably awful technique.

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More to come.

Hmmmm...
I think you've made yourself pretty clear in terms of your approach to Euins' testimony.
It might be a case of less is more.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2023, 08:57:57 PM »
You seem to be under the impression it's enough for you to simply state this opinion and "that's about it".
As far as an approach to research is concerned I would have to say that's an unbelievably awful technique.

Sadly, that’s how Mitch approaches every question.

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Re: First-Hand Eyewitness Testimony Proving Conspiracy
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2023, 08:57:57 PM »