Q9

[Dan O'meara]

Why not?

This is discussed at length in martin's thread, "A Time to Receive and Give (CE399)

What are you basing that opinion on?

CE399 was not the bullet that impacted JBC's wrist. So the imperative, to have a whole bullet pass through the wrist, disappears, and certain things begin to make a bit more sense (to me, at least)

The pre-op X-ray of JBC's wrist shows there is no "channel" through the bone, the bullet impacted the side of the radius and, in order for it to exit through the crease in the wrist, would have to pass directly through one of the densest bones in the body. There is no hint of this happening in the X-ray.
If the bullet fragmented on contact with the wrist, I could see how a smaller part of it might get through to exit through the crease in the wrist. The remainder of the bullet would, most probably, end up on the limo floor.

Multiple fragments are discovered throughout the wound. I can easily see how this might happen in the case of fragmentation but I have great difficulty understanding how this could be the case if CE399 were the bullet involved.
The problem with CE399 is that the only place lead fragments could come from is the base of the bullet. They can't come from anywhere else on the bullet. It was quickly realised that, in order to be able to explain how CE399 could leave metal fragments in the wound, it must have entered the wound base first. This was not based on evidence relating to the wound itself - the size, shape or disposition of the wound - it was simply an invention of necessity. In turn this led to the idea of a "tumbling bullet", which is something I have great difficulty envisaging.
Was the bullet tumbling through JBC's chest? I don't know.
The impression I get is that, "officially", the bullet entered and exited JBC's torso nose-first and when it exited his chest it began rotating at an unbelievably high speed, so that it hit the wrist base-first. The problem with this is that the bullet would still have been rotating at an incredibly high speed as it traveled through the wrist.
The X-ray of JBC's wrist doesn't show a hole where a bullet might have traveled directly through without rotating, let alone a rotating bullet, which would surely have blown his hand off!

Which brings us to the exit wound, a one centimeter long slit!!
This rotating bullet, smashing through the radius, scattering metallic fragments as it goes, leaves a one centimeter long slit as it exits.
I simply don't buy that.

The bullet that struck that wrist was travelling at near muzzle velocity. That's why the damage is so severe and the hole is so obvious.

When the bullet struck that bone it was travelling well below muzzle velocity. The bone was moved out of the way. And while the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there.

"...the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there."

Hmmm...
This is a bit like you're contention that, although there are multiple fragments that don't show up on JBC's pre-op X-ray, they are still there.
You can't see it , but it's there! What sort of argument is that?
It just leads to a 'pantomime' argument - "Oh yes it is", "Oh no it isn't".

The reason that fragments were deposited in the wrist is because the bullet struck it base end forward. Lead that was extruding from the flattened bullet broke off.

Do you imagine the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist, or that it passed through base-first all the way?

Explain the conflicting information contained in the following two images.

Assuming it's Bell's writing on both items - on one she describes a fragment (singular), on the other she describes fragments (plural).
Why?
I literally don't have a clue.

You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want, but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments. Those fragments were removed from Connally's wrist by Dr. Gregory, as confirmed by Audrey Bell.

You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want

Thanks, I will. 

but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments.

Where have I denied that the picture in the National Archives depicts four fragments?
Gregory testifies to removing two fragments.
The X-rays prove he removed two fragments.
Frazier only recorded a single fragment from JBC's arm. Even though the envelope he received them in stated "fragments" plural.
The original FBI report states that a single fragment was removed.
The hospital memo states one fragment was handed over to Nolan (who thought the fragment came from JBC's thigh!)

Do you think you can unravel all this with a dodgy, heavily pixelated pic?

[Tim Nickerson]

This is discussed at length in martin's thread, "A Time to Receive and Give (CE399)

We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?

CE399 was not the bullet that impacted JBC's wrist. So the imperative, to have a whole bullet pass through the wrist, disappears, and certain things begin to make a bit more sense (to me, at least)

How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?

The pre-op X-ray of JBC's wrist shows there is no "channel" through the bone, the bullet impacted the side of the radius and, in order for it to exit through the crease in the wrist, would have to pass directly through one of the densest bones in the body. There is no hint of this happening in the X-ray.

Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.

Multiple fragments are discovered throughout the wound. I can easily see how this might happen in the case of fragmentation but I have great difficulty understanding how this could be the case if CE399 were the bullet involved.
The problem with CE399 is that the only place lead fragments could come from is the base of the bullet. They can't come from anywhere else on the bullet. It was quickly realised that, in order to be able to explain how CE399 could leave metal fragments in the wound, it must have entered the wound base first. This was not based on evidence relating to the wound itself - the size, shape or disposition of the wound - it was simply an invention of necessity. In turn this led to the idea of a "tumbling bullet", which is something I have great difficulty envisaging.
Was the bullet tumbling through JBC's chest? I don't know.
The impression I get is that, "officially", the bullet entered and exited JBC's torso nose-first and when it exited his chest it began rotating at an unbelievably high speed, so that it hit the wrist base-first. The problem with this is that the bullet would still have been rotating at an incredibly high speed as it traveled through the wrist.
The X-ray of JBC's wrist doesn't show a hole where a bullet might have traveled directly through without rotating, let alone a rotating bullet, which would surely have blown his hand off!

The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds. Officially, the bullet did not enter Connally's torso nose first. It was already yawed before entering. When it exited the chest, it was already moving with base end forward.

Which brings us to the exit wound, a one centimeter long slit!!
This rotating bullet, smashing through the radius, scattering metallic fragments as it goes, leaves a one centimeter long slit as it exits.
I simply don't buy that.

The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.

"...the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there."

Hmmm...
This is a bit like you're contention that, although there are multiple fragments that don't show up on JBC's pre-op X-ray, they are still there.
You can't see it , but it's there! What sort of argument is that?
It just leads to a 'pantomime' argument - "Oh yes it is", "Oh no it isn't".

Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?

Do you imagine the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist, or that it passed through base-first all the way?

I don't know.

Assuming it's Bell's writing on both items - on one she describes a fragment (singular), on the other she describes fragments (plural).
Why?
I literally don't have a clue.

You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.

Where have I denied that the picture in the National Archives depicts four fragments?
Gregory testifies to removing two fragments.
The X-rays prove he removed two fragments.
Frazier only recorded a single fragment from JBC's arm. Even though the envelope he received them in stated "fragments" plural.
The original FBI report states that a single fragment was removed.
The hospital memo states one fragment was handed over to Nolan (who thought the fragment came from JBC's thigh!)

Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

Do you think you can unravel all this with a dodgy, heavily pixelated pic?

You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.

[Charles Collins]

Haag demonstrates how the Carcano 6.5mm bullet behaves. It begins to yaw immediately after leaving blocks of ballistic soap and gelatin which mimic human muscle tissue. Watch the video beginning about 25:10.

And there is another demonstration by someone in Australia (if I remember correctly) on video that shows figures set up in the configuration that JFK and JBC were in. It is well worth watching. I will try to find it. But if anyone else knows where it can be found, please post it. Thanks.

[Charles Collins]

Haag demonstrates how the Carcano 6.5mm bullet behaves. It begins to yaw immediately after leaving blocks of ballistic soap and gelatin which mimic human muscle tissue. Watch the video beginning about 25:10.

And there is another demonstration by someone in Australia (if I remember correctly) on video that shows figures set up in the configuration that JFK and JBC were in. It is well worth watching. I will try to find it. But if anyone else knows where it can be found, please post it. Thanks.

Here’s the second part of the video that I mentioned. The first part contains the specs, etc., you should be able to find the first part if you are interested.

[John Iacoletti]

Not very close to the alleged path of the "single bullet".  Note that it exits "JFK"'s chest and enters way below "Connally"'s armpit.

[Charles Collins]

Not very close to the alleged path of the "single bullet".  Note that it exits "JFK"'s chest and enters way below "Connally"'s armpit.

The windy conditions caused the platform on the crane to rock in the breeze. But he was still able to get fairly close to the target. He missed to the left and slightly low. Based on my two-laser experiment posted in another thread, I would estimate the exit on the JFK figure could have been to the left and slightly lower than the actual wound in JFK’s throat.




The entry in the JBC figure is only slightly low and to the left.





It appears to have broken the seventh and eighth ribs instead of only the fifth rib. Take your fingers and feel how much distance there is between these ribs on yourself. That is about how much the shot missed the target by (not very much considering the windy conditions).





It exited the JBC figure around the right nipple area and hit another bone in the wrist block. And the bullet had lost enough energy by that time that it just bounced off of the thigh block instead of slightly penetrating it.





The bullet was found intact but with more disfiguration than CE 399. It didn’t fragment or completely obliterate a “wrist bone”.




No one is likely to ever exactly duplicate the single bullet path even with unlimited resources and time. But I think that this demonstration shows that it is feasible.

[Charles Collins]

Oh, and here is the first part of the Australian demonstration video for those who might be interested.

[Martin Weidmann]

We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?

How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?

Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.

The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds. Officially, the bullet did not enter Connally's torso nose first. It was already yawed before entering. When it exited the chest, it was already moving with base end forward.

The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.
Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?

I don't know.

You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.

Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.

You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.

We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?

Why would you want to repeat an entire conversation when you can also go to the other thread and find out what you want to know?

Are you just lazy, Tim, or are you just expecting another outcome from the same conversation?

Talk about arguments for argument's sake....

How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?

Why would anybody have to determine that, when there is not a shred of evidence that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 either struck Connally's wrist or was even found at Parkland?

Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.

And Dr Humes said in his WC testimony that he did not believe the bullet now known as CE399 could have gone through Kennedy and Connally. So, where does that leave us?