Hoover-Johnson Transcript 11/23/63

[Jack Trojan]

How soon you forget.

In the OP, you said:

if you lean towards a conspiracy and Oswald was the patsy, then this transcript demonstrates how far up the ladder it went.

I pointed out that this statement is just a load of circular reasoning.

And you expressed incredulity:

That's a lot to know and do less than a day later. WTF?

Which isn't that hard to believe when you realize that, by the time of the call, a small army of investigators had been employed in the investigation. The FBI, Secret Service, Dallas Police, Dallas County Sherriffs Department, USPS, and any number of other agencies had assigned every investigator that they could to the case. 

Your response was to change the subject by launching into a classic Gish Gallop, and when called out on that, you fell back on some cheese-boy sarcasm. And here we are.

Relax Squidly. Unlike you, I know the difference between proof and evidence. We are all just spit-balling here except for your unsupported naïve claim:

"Which isn't that hard to believe when you realize that, by the time of the call, a small army of investigators had been employed in the investigation. The FBI, Secret Service, Dallas Police, Dallas County Sherriffs Department, USPS, and any number of other agencies had assigned every investigator that they could to the case."

I gave you examples of how incompetent and corrupt the investigators were, which rationalized my doubt they were able to apprehend Oswald within an hour and know so much about him within 24 hrs. Then you opined that it wasn't that hard for you to believe, which you thought somehow scored you some points and destroyed my argument. HA! You didn't even follow my argument.

Funny how a LNer tells me that I'm using circular reasoning, yet has no concept of logical fallacy. But I get it, you LNers have wasted years defending the conspirators to advance your delusional LN theory. In for a penny I suppose. I'm sure the conspirators appreciate it, if any are still alive. Sucker.

[Jack Trojan]

Fleshing out Hoover's Nazi connections. Allen Dulles and George de Mohrenschildt were confirmed Nazis.

The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination - by Mae Brussell

Regarding J. Edgar Hoover and Interpol

    FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover "mistrusted and disliked all three Kennedy brothers. President Johnson and Hoover had mutual fear and hatred for the Kennedys," wrote the late William Sullivan, for many years an assistant FBI director. Hoover hated Robert Kennedy, who as Attorney General was his boss, and feared John. In turn the President distrusted Allen Dulles, easing him out as CIA director after the 1961 Bay of Pigs debacle. When JFK moved to lower the oil depletion allowance, he incurred the displeasure of John McCloy, whose clients' profits would be trimmed.

    Hoover, Dulles and McCloy did not belong to the Kennedy fan club. When the president was shot, Hoover controlled the field investigation, and Dulles and McCloy helped mold the final verdict of the Warren Commission.

    As America stood on the threshold of World War II Hoover continued a friendly relationship with the nazis who dominated Interpol, the Berlin-based international secret police. He had been obsessed with the "Red menace" since 1919 when he became head of the Bureau's General Intelligence Division. Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Arthur Nebe and other fanatical nazis were active in Interpol. Even after Hitler occupied Czechoslovakia, Hoover ignored all evidence of nazi death squads and atrocities and cooperated with the boys in Berlin. As France fell, Hoover exchanged lists of wanted criminals, enclosing autographed photographs of himself. It was not until three days before Pearl Harbor that he called a halt -- and then only because he feared his image might be tarnished.

    When the war had been imminent Roosevelt charged Hoover with ferreting out nazi spies in the Western Hemisphere. Two escaped his notice. As early as 1933 Gestapo agent Dr. Hermann Friedrick Erben recruited Errol Flynn as an intelligence source. Erben went on to become a naturalized American citizen, but never abandoned his loyalty to Hitler. Flynn went on to make "Santa Fe Trail" in 1940, co-starring with Ronald Reagan, and the two paired up for "Desperate Journey" in 1942.

    George de Mohrenschildt, the Oswalds' genial host in Dallas, was tagged by Hoover's FBI as a nazi spy during World War II. G-men noted that his cousin, Baron Maydell, had nazi ties, and that his uncle distributed pro-nazi films. Their suspicions were confirmed when they trailed de Mohrenschildt from New York to Corpus Christi. On October 8, 1942 a "lookout" was placed in his file in case he applied for another passport.

J. Edgar Hoover kept alive the Nazi intelligence network INTERPOL.

    The parts left out of J. Edgar Hoover's investigation before and after Kennedy was killed were the nazi associations de Mohrenschildt had while working for U.S. intelligence.

    George's cousin, the movie producer Baron Constantine Maydell, was one of the top German Abwehr agents in North America. Reinhard von Gehlen recruited Maydell in the post-war era to be in charge of the CIA's Russian emigre programs.   

    Gehlen recruited veterans of Maydell's Abwehr Group to work with East European emigre organizations inside the U.S.

    Part of Lee and Marina's red carpet treatment in the U.S. started with their arrival from the USSR. Spas T. Raigkin was the ex-Secretary General of a group such as Maydell's. The AFABN, the American Friends of the Anti-Bolshevik Bloc of Nations, with CIA funding, assisted Lee and Marina to get settled.

    J. Edgar Hoover was trained only to see if there were Communists around ...the red menace. The Abwehr, Reinhard Gehlen and Maydell were overlooked by the FBI.

    After the war Interpol ostensibly cleaned up its act, moved to Paris and installed the prestigious Hoover as vice president. Yet Interpol steadfastly refused to hunt for nazi war criminals, contending it was independent of politics. The excuse appeared a bit lame when, in the 1970s, former SS officer Paul Dickopf became president.

George de Mohrenschildt also introduced Oswald to Ruth Paine.

The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination - by Mae Brussell

    When George de Mohrenschildt was busy introducing Lee and Marina to the Dallas-Ft. Worth White Russian displaced Czarists, he managed to keep the social level equal with his American contacts.

    One casual dinner in the company of Michael and Ruth Paine, and that was enough meeting to set the Oswalds’ course. George and Jeane didn't have to meet with them again.

    Ruth Paine would provide housing for Marina while Lee went to New Orleans. A few weeks later, she drove Marina to join Lee. After summer vacation at Wood's Hole, Mass., Ruth returned and brought Marina to her home in Irving, Texas, while Lee was on the bus to Mexico with Albert Osborne/John Bowen, and four other Solidarists from the Russian network.

    After Kennedy was murdered, the Dallas police rushed to the Paine's home. From that garage and elsewhere, via the Paines, came most of the incriminating evidence against Oswald.

    The alleged murder weapon never could be proven by the Warren Commission as ever having come from their garage.

    The cropped photo that Life printed with Oswald holding a rifle came from a box removed from the garage, taken to the police department, then returned the next day, with nobody present to indicate where it came from.

    Accessory after the fact, the letter was delivered to Marina in December undated and unsigned, to cover up General Walker's anxiety to blame a "Communist," Lee, for shooting at him in April and came from Ruth to Marina. It wasn't in the home before then. The Warren Commission required planted evidence sometimes in order to divert from Lee Oswald's links to the Defense Department, assisted by Ruth and Michael Paine.

    Michael Paine's occupation at Bell Aircraft is the Defense Department. This job requires security clearances, so what would the unlikely Oswalds be doing in his home? Oswald, the "defector?"

    Paine's boss at Bell Aircraft as Director of Research and Development, was none other than the noterious war criminal General Walter Dornberger.

    Dornberger was supposed to be hanged at Nuremburg for his war crimes, slave labor and mass murders.

    The British warned the U.S. not to let him live because even after the war he was conniving for another one. As stated, "Dornberger is a menace of the first order who is untrustworthy. His attitude will turn ally against ally and he would become a source of irritation and future unrest." (Project Paperclip. Clarence Lasby.)

    The very first call to authorities after the gun went off on November 22, 1963, was from an employee at Bell Helicopter who suggested "Oswald did it." Police never located the source of both Oswald addresses that day.

    Michael Paine took Lee to a meeting with General Edwin Walker shortly before the assassination. Soon Oswald would be charged with having shot Walker in April, and Walker would be calling his nazi cronies in Germany 24 hours after JFK was killed telling them he finally solved "who shot through his window" seven months earlier: the same Oswald.

    Who were the Paines? To believe the Warren Commission and the CIA staff of lawyers, they were Mr. and Mrs. Good Neighbor, all heart, altruistic. Ruth simply wanted to learn more Russian from a native. For that price, she housed Marina, a two-year-old daughter, a new infant, with all the fuss and mess of three extras in a tiny house.

    Michael Paine was a descendant of the Cabots on both sides. His cousin Thomas Dudley Cabot, former president of United Fruit, had offered their Gibraltar Steamship as a cover for the CIA during the Bay of Pigs. Another cousin was Alexander Cochrane Forbes, a director of United Fruit and trustee of Cabot, Cabot, and Forbes.

    Both Allen Dulles and John J. McCloy were part of the United Fruit team. The Paine family had links with circles of the OSS and the CIA.

    Ruth Hyde Paine maintained close ties with the Forbes families. Peter Dale Scott investigated the Paines, "the patrician Paine and Forbes families." A far cry from anybody's neighbor.

    Michael's education came as a tradition, third generation physicist at Harvard before working for Bell Helicopter.

    The British were correct on the Dornberger evaluation.

    Another clue to Albert Speer, the Reichmaster for Munitions and War Production, and General Dornberger, is their meeting as early as April, 1943.

    When it was obvious to Hitler they would be losing the war against the USSR, all top Nazis made detailed plans for two years on how to proceed next.

    Speer met with Dornberger, at Peenemunde, the missile and rocket factory run with Werner Von Braun, and instructed him in "the dispersion of functions throughout the Reich."

    Translated, that meant get ready to come to the U.S.

"Who were the Paines? To believe the Warren Commission and the CIA staff of lawyers, they were Mr. and Mrs. Good Neighbor, all heart, altruistic. Ruth simply wanted to learn more Russian from a native. For that price, she housed Marina, a two-year-old daughter, a new infant, with all the fuss and mess of three extras in a tiny house."

Does anyone still believe that Ruth Paine wasn't one of Oswald's handlers? Besides the LNers, that is.

[Mitch Todd]

Relax Squidly. Unlike you, I know the difference between proof and evidence. We are all just spit-balling here except for your unsupported naïve claim:

"Which isn't that hard to believe when you realize that, by the time of the call, a small army of investigators had been employed in the investigation. The FBI, Secret Service, Dallas Police, Dallas County Sherriffs Department, USPS, and any number of other agencies had assigned every investigator that they could to the case."

I gave you examples of how incompetent and corrupt the investigators were, which rationalized my doubt they were able to apprehend Oswald within an hour and know so much about him within 24 hrs. Then you opined that it wasn't that hard for you to believe, which you thought somehow scored you some points and destroyed my argument. HA! You didn't even follow my argument.

Funny how a LNer tells me that I'm using circular reasoning, yet has no concept of logical fallacy. But I get it, you LNers have wasted years defending the conspirators to advance your delusional LN theory. In for a penny I suppose. I'm sure the conspirators appreciate it, if any are still alive. Sucker.

If I didn't "follow your argument," it's because you haven't actually made one. So far, you've managed a tautology, an unsupported assertion dressed up as a question, and a non sequitur. Your "examples" don't address or rebut the point I made about the amount of manpower pressed into service in the investigation.

However, your continuing fascination with finding "secret Nazi's" betrays the idols that you pray to. And that your information is carved from the loose, weathered boards you've been prying off of shipwrecks dotting the shores of the Crackpot archipelago.

[Jack Trojan]

If I didn't "follow your argument," it's because you haven't actually made one. So far, you've managed a tautology, an unsupported assertion dressed up as a question, and a non sequitur. Your "examples" don't address or rebut the point I made about the amount of manpower pressed into service in the investigation.

However, your continuing fascination with finding "secret Nazi's" betrays the idols that you pray to. And that your information is carved from the loose, weathered boards you've been prying off of shipwrecks dotting the shores of the Crackpot archipelago.

Have you ever posted anything substantive? Rhetorical.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

If I didn't "follow your argument," it's because you haven't actually made one. So far, you've managed a tautology, an unsupported assertion dressed up as a question, and a non sequitur. Your "examples" don't address or rebut the point I made about the amount of manpower pressed into service in the investigation.

However, your continuing fascination with finding "secret Nazi's" betrays the idols that you pray to. And that your information is carved from the loose, weathered boards you've been prying off of shipwrecks dotting the shores of the Crackpot archipelago.

After these fascists killed JFK they put into power LBJ (who was one of them too). LBJ then proceeded to use the assassination, to cite it, to pass civil rights. Yes, the fascists who wanted to stop the traitor Kennedy because of his liberal policies then saw LBJ *use* their act to end racial fascism. Oops. LBJ then ended the covert war on Cuba, the fascist program to kill Castro; which was pushed by the Kennedys anyway and with JFK dead RFK was no longer interested in pushing it. In any case, it ended with JFK's death; the one the fascists did. Double oops. But one more: then the fascists who killed JFK staged a fake investigation that *cleared* Castro. Yes, the fascists who wanted war to overthrow Castro cleared him of any involvement and thus a cause for his removal. Triple oops.

But one more again (okay, it's really two more) then after being elected, LBJ proceeded to pass the most liberal/progressive policies in US history. Yes, the fascist LBJ and the fascists who put him into power then enacted the most anti-fascist set of policies in American history. Oops again.

In conspiracy world this all makes sense. In this one, not so much.

[Jack Trojan]

After these fascists killed JFK they put into power LBJ (who was one of them too). LBJ then proceeded to use the assassination, to cite it, to pass civil rights. Yes, the fascists who wanted to stop the traitor Kennedy because of his liberal policies then saw LBJ *use* their act to end racial fascism. Oops. LBJ then ended the covert war on Cuba, the fascist program to kill Castro; which was pushed by the Kennedys anyway and with JFK dead RFK was no longer interested in pushing it. In any case, it ended with JFK's death; the one the fascists did. Double oops. But one more: then the fascists who killed JFK staged a fake investigation that *cleared* Castro. Yes, the fascists who wanted war to overthrow Castro cleared him of any involvement and thus a cause for his removal. Triple oops.

But one more again (okay, it's really two more) then after being elected, LBJ proceeded to pass the most liberal/progressive policies in US history. Yes, the fascist LBJ and the fascists who put him into power then enacted the most anti-fascist set of policies in American history. Oops again.

In conspiracy world this all makes sense. In this one, not so much.

LBJ may or may not have sympathized with fascism, but in this case he was only complicit in the Big Event. He obviously made some sort of deal to allow it to happen and had no intentions of starting WW3, which was the whole point of Oswald being portrayed as a lone nut. LBJ was probably responsible for preventing another Cuban Missile Crisis. Since JFK didn't bite on WW3, LBJ was next in line to carpe diem. Phew, another narrow escape from Armagedon. No wonder LBJ never appointed a VP.  He also made an extra effort to make up for his sin of complicity. You realize he went mad in the end, right?

[Mitch Todd]

Have you ever posted anything substantive? Rhetorical.

That's what we all wonder about you.

BTW, of all the substantive things I've posted over the years, this is the one I'm proudest of:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/bJGkReeSuuk/m/yIuVw_0Pz2wJ

[Jack Trojan]

That's what we all wonder about you.

BTW, of all the substantive things I've posted over the years, this is the one I'm proudest of:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/bJGkReeSuuk/m/yIuVw_0Pz2wJ

Well done Squidly, you solved the case and we can all go home now! Sarcasm aside, this explains why you tend to dissect the structure of an argument rather than address the substance. I like to do both. But you're in the LNer game where all critical thinking gets tossed out the window and logic be damned. Stay the course and deny, deflect and look away. You apparently being such a person of logic, I'm surprised that being a LNer doesn't make your head explode.

BTW you had a couple of glitches in your derivations, but we're already off topic.