Who Killed J.D. Tippit?

[Bill Brown]

Thanks Bill

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked where he lived?
Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either.
About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."
Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.
I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.
And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.
Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell?
Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard.
Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name?
Mr. HILL. Yes; it was.

JohnM

Also, Bob Carroll stated that the (arrest) wallet contained identifications listing two names, not just one.

[John Mytton]

Hi John.  I went over to the Ed Forum because (supposedly) the Crème de la Crème of CT's were there and I was looking to discuss the case with the best.  I have been a member over there for maybe nine or ten months now and I have been disappointed in the quality of conspiracy advocates over there.  Kook City.

Regarding the wallet, Besides Barrett, Croy is the only other member of law enforcement who ever mentioned a wallet at the scene.  Dale Myers interviewed Bentley, Poe, Jez, Shipley and Leavelle. All were at the scene. None of them knew anything about any wallet.  Westbrook, who supposedly asked Barrett if he knew the names Oswald and Hidell, never mentioned any wallet at the scene.

I hope you're well, Buddy.  If you ever decide to debate the case in the Facebook groups, let me know.  I'm Admin of two groups.  One centered on the entire case, the other centered solely on the Tippit case.

When did Barrett and Croy first mention the wallet and what did both say that the wallet contained.

Btw you have been the Tippit expert who I always trust to have the best information on the case. 

Yes you are also right about Carroll, thanks for further reinforcing my faith in your expertise!

Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked his name?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; he was asked his name.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give his name?
Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what the other one was.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

JohnM

[Bill Brown]

When did Barrett and Croy first mention the wallet and what did both say that the wallet contained.

Btw you have been the Tippit expert who I always trust to have the best information on the case. 

Yes you are also right about Carroll, thanks for further reinforcing my faith in your expertise!

Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked his name?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; he was asked his name.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give his name?
Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what the other one was.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

JohnM

When did Barrett and Croy first mention the wallet and what did both say that the wallet contained.

Many believe that Barrett first mentions the wallet during his dinner with Hosty, which Hosty then goes on to mention in his book Assignment Oswald.

However, there are newspaper articles from the 1980's (I've seen them and read them in the past but couldn't possibly recall them now, but it was more than one) in which Barrett, in interviews with newspaper reporters, mentions a wallet at the scene.  In other words, the first we hear of the wallet is not in Hosty's book, but in newspaper articles a decade before Hosty wrote his book (1996).  As for the contents of this Tenth & Patton wallet, obviously Barrett said it contained Oswald and Hidell identifications since Westbrook asked him about the names.  In interviews with Dale Myers, Barrett said he never personally handled the wallet and never saw the contents of the wallet at the scene (Barrett did say he later saw the contents of Oswald's wallet, most likely the contents photos we've all seen by now).

As for Croy, he testified to the Warren Commission and never mentioned any wallet during his testimony.  The first I personally hear of Croy mentioning any wallet was in an interview he did with researcher Jones Harris in 2002.

In a 2009 interview with Dale Myers, Croy said that he thought the wallet had seven different identification inside.  Croy stated that none of the ID's had a photo attached and none included the name Oswald.

Interestingly enough, John Armstrong writes about Croy and the wallet (Harvey and Lee, 2003), citing the 2002 interview Croy did with Jones Harris.  Armstrong said that Croy was handed a wallet by an unidentified person and that the wallet contained identifications for both Oswald and Hidell.  Remember, Croy told Myers in 2009 that none of the identifications were in the name of Oswald.

Btw you have been the Tippit expert who I always trust to have the best information on the case. 

Thanks John.  I appreciate that a lot coming from you.  The Tippit case is just a passion I have.

[John Iacoletti]

Neither Hill nor Carroll mention this Hidell ID in their December reports to Curry. It’s only months later in their testimonies.

[Martin Weidmann]

Neither Hill nor Carroll mention this Hidell ID in their December reports to Curry. It’s only months later in their testimonies.

Indeed, the WC "investigation" gave them every possibility to clean up the record.

And even then, Hill and Carroll both relied on Bentley (who Bill Brown considers unreliable) and they still couldn't get beyond "the best I recall" (Carroll) and "there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember" (Hill). What is this? Amateur hour?

Defense lawyers would have had a field day with these guys. They allegedly find a piece of vital evidence in Oswald's wallet, but don't report the finding. Nobody says anything about it for months, not even in their reports to Fritz and only after six months or so they come up with some vague statements about what they may recall but don't really remember.

And even worse; if they wanted confirmation about what was in the wallet Bentley took from Oswald, why did they ask Hill and Carroll and NOT Bentley? I believe that this was for the same reason they never showed CE399 to Tomlinson... The risk of the witness saying something they did not want to hear was simply to great!

[Bill Brown]

The recent pages of this thread are exactly why I always say that the wallet is a rabbit hole that none of us should bother going down.  It's a complete waste of time and always will be.

[Martin Weidmann]

The recent pages of this thread is exactly why I always say that the wallet is a rabbit hole that none of us should bother going down.  It's a complete waste of time and always will be.

Everything about the Kennedy and Tippit killings is a massive rabbit hole. The entire case does not resemble a normal murder investigation, either because of incompentence or by design.


a rabbit hole that none of us should bother going down

And instead we should just accept that the Hidell ID was indeed in the wallet Bentley took from Oswald, despite there being no evidence for it. Is that what you're saying?

[Mitch Todd]

What I noted was that in Bentley's own account, he accompanied Walker, Oswald, Carrol, and Hill to Fritz' office and turned over the wallet there.

Bentley didn't say that. In his report he just said he turned over "his information" (whatever that means) to Baker. You just assume he was talking about the wallet. That's beyond weak!

And even worse, as Gus Rose started talking to Oswald as soon as he was brought in and was given a wallet (somebody said was Oswald's) none of this contradicts the possibility that the wallets were switched and that Rose was given the Tippit scene wallet, which we know from FBI agent Barrett did contain a Hidell ID.

I'll take his word for it

Apparently, Bill Brown doesn't take his word at all. But beyond that, you are taking his word about what?

Why would he be expected to provide that in the report? It is only your own presumption that he would have.

So the officer who found a vital and incriminating piece of evidence doesn't have to report that and doesn't have to be part of the chain of custody? Is that what you are foolishly trying to say?

You do understand that before they went to Fritz's office where you think Bentley turned over the wallet, they had already left Oswald with Rose and he (according to his testimony) had already been given a wallet by then. So even your silly timeline doesn't work!

Bentley didn't say that. In his report he just said he turned over "his information" (whatever that means) to Baker. You just assume he was talking about the wallet. That's beyond weak!

Bentley wrote: "I turned his identification over to Lt. Baker. I then went to Captain Westbrook's Office to make a report of the arrest." "Identification" is, of course, much more specific than "information." "Turned over" implies a physical transfer. The only physical identification that Bentley could have turned over is what he took from Oswald, unless you want to conjure something out of the cold thin air of your imagination. And there was no reason for Bentley to have kept the wallet and it's remaining contents, unless you want to conjure something else out of the cold thin air of your imagination.


none of this contradicts the possibility that the wallets were switched and that Rose was given the Tippit scene wallet

So, you're going to assert something you've imagined then demand that we prove you wrong?


But beyond that, you are taking his word about what?

That he would have known what he did that day much better than you ever will.


So the officer who found a vital and incriminating piece of evidence doesn't have to report that and doesn't have to be part of the chain of custody? Is that what you are foolishly trying to say?

In other words, you really are simply presuming what you think Bentley, et al, would have reported and how they would have reported it.


You do understand that before they went to Fritz's office where you think Bentley turned over the wallet, they had already left Oswald with Rose and he (according to his testimony) had already been given a wallet by then. So even your silly timeline doesn't work!

By "Fritz' office," I was referring to the Robbery and Homicide Bureau suite at DPD HQ, within which was Fritz personal office. Rose and Baker both worked for Fritz and occupied desks within the suite.