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Author Topic: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?  (Read 65472 times)

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #336 on: June 17, 2023, 05:04:04 PM »
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There could never be a true trial for LHO. Jack Ruby made sure of that. However, the rules that the courts have in place are there to try to help insure that a fair trial takes place. I think that our opinions could possibly be made more fair if we at least consider what the courts would have done if LHO had lived to go to trial. Here is another snip from the Fifth Circuit:


As I told you earlier, it is your duty to determine the facts. To do so, you must consider only the evidence presented during the trial. Evidence is the sworn testimony of the witnesses, including stipulations, and the exhibits. The questions, statements, objections, and arguments made by the lawyers are not evidence.
The function of the lawyers is to point out those things that are most significant or most helpful to their side of the case, and in so doing to call your attention to certain facts or inferences that might otherwise escape your notice. In the final analysis, however, it is your own recollection and interpretation of the evidence that controls in the case. What the lawyers say is not binding upon you.


People can speculate about what might have happened all they want to for as long as they want to. Many conspiracy oriented books have been sold and read based on speculations. But that is all they are, speculation (which is not allowed in the courts).
This is really a long overdue point. The conspiracists and Oswald defenders like to raise questions about the evidence based solely on speculation and disagreement and think that and that alone means the evidence can be dismissed or waved away. Outside a court or inside of one. As in: "It's possibly planted" or "Chain of custody was insufficient." As your quote shows, it can't. They want to use a legal standard against the lone assassin believers and evidence and then abandon that legal standard when it comes to their arguments or response to that evidence.

If they want to use the courtroom standard in judging evidence against Oswald then they need to use that standard when it comes to their claims too.  Defense attorney can't just make things up and think it's sufficient to eliminate the evidence. It's not.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 06:01:05 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #336 on: June 17, 2023, 05:04:04 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #337 on: June 17, 2023, 05:53:39 PM »
This is really a long overdue point. The conspiracists and Oswald defenders like to raise questions about the evidence based solely on speculation and disagreement and think that and that alone means the evidence can be dismissed or waved away. "It's possibly planted" or "Chain of custody was insufficient." As your quote shows, it can't. They want to use one legal standard against the lone assassin believers and then abandon that standard when it comes to their arguments.

If they want to use the courtroom standards in judging evidence against Oswald then they need to use that standard when it comes to their claims too.  Defense attorney can't just make things up and think it's sufficient to eliminate the evidence. It's not.

The conspiracists and Oswald defenders like to raise questions about the evidence based solely on speculation and disagreement

That's simply not true. Why do you start your argument with a lie?

think that and that alone means the evidence can be dismissed or waved away. "It's possibly planted" or "Chain of custody was insufficient." As your quote shows, it can't

Utter BS. Evidence needs to be authenticated, conclusive and persuasive. When it is, there is no ground to dismiss it. However, as in many instances in this case, when evidence is superficial, not conclusive and the dots are only connected with leaps of faith and assumptions there is every reason to question it's validity.

If they want to use the courtroom standards in judging evidence against Oswald then they need to use that standard when it comes to their claims too.

Agreed, as long as well argued counter arguments are not instantly dismissed or waved away by the LNs simply because they can't believe or even image something else than what they believe could have actually happened.

Defense attorney can't just make things up and think it's sufficient to eliminate the evidence. It's not.

And neither can prosecutors make things up. When somebody claims there is a preponderance of evidence, there should at least actually be evidence there to examine, right?

The bottom line is a simple one; evidence is compelling and conclusive or it isn't. Just how strong the evidence is can be measured by the (lack of) response from the other side to a challenge of that evidence. If a LN truly feels he has a strong case, he should be able to defend it and accept the weaker parts of that case. Instead, what we see frequently here is LNs not responding to the challenge but instead attack the challenger, playing silly games, and/or desperately trying to pivot away from what is actually being discussed.

Case in point, the WC claimed that the preponderance of evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired. In reality there is no such evidence. All there really is, is a rifle which it is alleged to belong to Oswald and some shells. There is zero evidence that places Oswald on the 6th floor of the TSBD when Kennedy was killed. All there are, are assumptions and speculations, but feel free to prove me wrong. I'll gladly bow to superior evidence that shows I am wrong.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #338 on: June 17, 2023, 11:56:23 PM »
Sadly, some people mistake and try to classify reasonable inferences for speculation. Here is more, this time from the US Courts for the Fifth Circuit:


In considering the evidence, you are permitted to draw such reasonable inferences from the testimony and exhibits as you feel are justified in the light of common experience. In other words, you may make deductions and reach conclusions that reason and common sense lead you to draw from the facts which have been established by the evidence.
Do not be concerned about whether evidence is “direct evidence” or “circumstantial evidence.” You
should consider and weigh all of the evidence that was presented to you.
“Direct evidence” is the testimony of one who asserts actual knowledge of a fact, such as an eye witness. “Circumstantial evidence” is proof of a chain of events and circumstances indicating that something is or is not a fact.
The law makes no distinction between the weight to be given either direct or circumstantial evidence. But the law requires that you, after weighing all of the evidence, whether direct or circumstantial, be convinced of the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt before you can find him guilty
.

https://www.lb5.uscourts.gov/juryinstructions/fifth/crim2015.pdf

This is really a long overdue point. The conspiracists and Oswald defenders like to raise questions about the evidence based solely on speculation and disagreement and think that and that alone means the evidence can be dismissed or waved away. Outside a court or inside of one. As in: "It's possibly planted" or "Chain of custody was insufficient." As your quote shows, it can't. They want to use a legal standard against the lone assassin believers and evidence and then abandon that legal standard when it comes to their arguments or response to that evidence.

If they want to use the courtroom standard in judging evidence against Oswald then they need to use that standard when it comes to their claims too.  Defense attorney can't just make things up and think it's sufficient to eliminate the evidence. It's not.

Thanks Charles and Steve, you have both nailed it.

CT's continually demand that LNers prove whatever fact to some impossible standard yet they can speculate till the cows come home and then insist that we must consider their fantasies. For instance I have presented evidence linking Hidell to Oswald, like the New Orleans PO box application, the Hidell Identification which Oswald had the retouched negatives used to create the fake ID in his possessions, numerous examples where Oswald used the name Hidell as reference for Job applications and that Oswald's nickname in Russia was Alek.
Yet I am asked to consider without a shred of evidence that Oswald was being manipulated by someone called A J Hidell. Yes, seriously!

And Iacoletti with a wave of his hand discards the uniquely specific retouched negatives because it doesn't have the name Hidell, while knowing full well that the name Hidell was typed onto the created faked ID, again an impossible standard of proof is required.

In the past I have asked precisely what evidence beyond purchase orders addressed to Oswald's PO Box, hand written coupons and envelopes addressed to Oswald's PO Box, photographs with the exact type of rifle and etc would be considered proof that Oswald bought and owned the rifle and am met with the usual silence or they will let me know when the evidence is produced and obviously again to some impossible standard, where they will further split the already split hairs. Ironically in the post directly preceding mine we are told that "I'll gladly bow to superior evidence that shows I am wrong", but beyond the Mountain of evidence already presented what this "superior evidence" is supposed to entail is never explained. -sigh-

What I have never seen from the CT's is a reasonable refutation of why the rifle was sent to Oswald's PO Box, they claim that the Kleins business document(Waldman 7) doesn't prove it was sent and demand that the despatcher should have been called to testify but what would he/she/they say? Are they supposed to remember someone named Hidell, absurd. And DiEugenio and others have demanded that some postal worker at the Dallas Post Office eight months later should have remembered the Hidell rifle order, another absurdity in the real world where a worker handles many orders every single day.

Again, it's prove this impossible standard to my(CT's) satisfaction because of course they(CT's) have set themselves up as The Ultimate Arbiter, or whatever piece of evidence that links Oswald to the crime, simply isn't true.
Another example is when the undeniable overwhelming physical evidence linking Oswald to the crime is presented it's faked or when Police testify there is some sort of "law enforcement grapevine" LOL and "Group think psyche" LOL!

And yet another example is the Tippit murder where Oswald shoots Tippit in front of eyewitnesses, leaves exclusively matching shells, is seen in front of more eyewitnesses leaving the scene with his revolver on full display, leaves his Jacket in a parking lot and then tries to kill more Police with the exact same weapon that left shells at the Tippit crime scene. But at every point the CT's disgustingly attempt to defend this Cop Killer.

JohnM


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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #338 on: June 17, 2023, 11:56:23 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #339 on: June 18, 2023, 12:37:15 AM »
Thanks Charles and Steve, you have both nailed it.

CT's continually demand that LNers prove whatever fact to some impossible standard yet they can speculate till the cows come home and then insist that we must consider their fantasies. For instance I have presented evidence linking Hidell to Oswald, like the New Orleans PO box application, the Hidell Identification which Oswald had the retouched negatives used to create the fake ID in his possessions, numerous examples where Oswald used the name Hidell as reference for Job applications and that Oswald's nickname in Russia was Alek.
Yet I am asked to consider without a shred of evidence that Oswald was being manipulated by someone called A J Hidell. Yes, seriously!

And Iacoletti with a wave of his hand discards the uniquely specific retouched negatives because it doesn't have the name Hidell, while knowing full well that the name Hidell was typed onto the created faked ID, again an impossible standard of proof is required.

In the past I have asked precisely what evidence beyond purchase orders addressed to Oswald's PO Box, hand written coupons and envelopes addressed to Oswald's PO Box, photographs with the exact type of rifle and etc would be considered proof that Oswald bought and owned the rifle and am met with the usual silence or they will let me know when the evidence is produced and obviously again to some impossible standard, where they will further split the already split hairs. Ironically in the post directly preceding mine we are told that "I'll gladly bow to superior evidence that shows I am wrong", but beyond the Mountain of evidence already presented what this "superior evidence" is supposed to entail is never explained. -sigh-

What I have never seen from the CT's is a reasonable refutation of why the rifle was sent to Oswald's PO Box, they claim that the Kleins business document(Waldman 7) doesn't prove it was sent and demand that the despatcher should have been called to testify but what would he/she/they say? Are they supposed to remember someone named Hidell, absurd. And DiEugenio and others have demanded that some postal worker at the Dallas Post Office eight months later should have remembered the Hidell rifle order, another absurdity in the real world where a worker handles many orders every single day.

Again, it's prove this impossible standard to my(CT's) satisfaction because of course they(CT's) have set themselves up as The Ultimate Arbiter, or whatever piece of evidence that links Oswald to the crime, simply isn't true.
Another example is when the undeniable overwhelming physical evidence linking Oswald to the crime is presented it's faked or when Police testify there is some sort of "law enforcement grapevine" LOL and "Group think psyche" LOL!

And yet another example is the Tippit murder where Oswald shoots Tippit in front of eyewitnesses, leaves exclusively matching shells, is seen in front of more eyewitnesses leaving the scene with his revolver on full display, leaves his Jacket in a parking lot and then tries to kill more Police with the exact same weapon that left shells at the Tippit crime scene. But at every point the CT's disgustingly attempt to defend this Cop Killer.

JohnM

CT's continually demand that LNers prove whatever fact to some impossible standard yet they can speculate till the cows come home

And that's the best example of a LN whining about the fact that there are people who ask them to support their claims with actual authentic and conclusive evidence.

I guess it's easier to attack the people who are not convinced by your BS than it is to persuade them with that so-called "mountain of undeniable overwhelming physical evidence".

It's like a bad prosecutor complaining to the Judge about the jury not believing his pathetic little story....   :D

But to answer your basic question, let me just give you one simple example;

When you show me a BY photograph and say it shows Oswald is holding a rifle that looks similar to the type of Carcano that was ordered with the Hidell coupon, I will agree with you.

Show me the same photograph and claim that it proves that Oswald received and owned the rifle found at the TSBD, I will disagree with you because your claim isn't supported by the evidence.

Get it now?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 12:48:18 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #340 on: June 18, 2023, 03:06:07 AM »

But to answer your basic question, let me just give you one simple example;

When you show me a BY photograph and say it shows Oswald is holding a rifle that looks similar to the type of Carcano that was ordered with the Hidell coupon, I will agree with you.


With pleasure.

From the Kleins ad, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Oswald received C20-T750





And in addition, the rifle in evidence found on the 6th floor shares the exact same serial number that Kleins sent.



Now agree with me!

 Thumb1: Thumb1:

JohnM
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 03:09:38 AM by John Mytton »

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #340 on: June 18, 2023, 03:06:07 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #341 on: June 18, 2023, 05:43:34 AM »
You're all over the place, either the "Hidell Story" was firmly implanted or it wasn't?

If you can’t figure out the difference between a story and the precise details of a story, then I can’t help you.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #342 on: June 18, 2023, 05:46:11 AM »
The reality is that the Hidell ID wasn't even needed because yet another piece of evidence linking Oswald with his A J Hidell alias is the New Orleans post box application which was opened way back in June.

I guess this means “Marina Oswald” was “his alias” too.

🙄

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #343 on: June 18, 2023, 05:47:09 AM »
With pleasure.

From the Kleins ad, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Oswald received C20-T750





And in addition, the rifle in evidence found on the 6th floor shares the exact same serial number that Kleins sent.



Now agree with me!

 Thumb1: Thumb1:

JohnM

No, because there are too many leaps of faith and not enough credible evidence to support your claims.

From the Kleins ad, Oswald ordered C20-T750 and Oswald received C20-T750

First leap of faith! Show me proof that Oswald received anything. I don't believe there is, or ever was, a mail order business that ships merchandise without any confirmation of either shipping or receipt.

Secondly, details matter, even when you like to ignore them. The order was for C20-T750 from Department 358 (the February 1963 issue of the American Rifleman) which is not the same rifle they offered as C20-T750 in the April issue. To just assume that Kleins' would simply send out another rifle than was ordered is another leap of faith. The WC did not even bother to ask Waldman about the sending out of a rifle that was different from the one ordered. One can only wonder why.....

And in addition, the rifle in evidence found on the 6th floor shares the exact same serial number that Kleins sent.

Wrong. The rifle found at the TSBD has the same serial number that was hand written on Waldman 7. There is no way to verify when the document we know as Waldman 7 was actually made and by who and it most certainly isn't proof of any rifle being sent, nothwithstanding Waldman's explanation of the meaning of the also hand written letters "PP" on the same document.

So, sorry, just too many leaps of faith and not enough authenticated evidence to justify the conclusions you are jumping to. It is beyond belief that something this basic needs to be explained to you.

Btw, there is something I don't really understand. That Kleins' made copies of order coupons on microfilm I can understand. That's probably a better way to keep track of all incoming orders than saving all those coupons. However, as Waldman explained, document 7 is an internal order form which is generated for each order. Why in the world would they copy that on microfilm as well and not keep the original?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2023, 06:34:43 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Who Killed J.D. Tippit?
« Reply #343 on: June 18, 2023, 05:47:09 AM »