Time for Truth

[David Von Pein]

...the wrongly-accused still in Dealey Plaza as late as 1:12PM...

Then who did Earlene Roberts see dash in and out of the Beckley roominghouse at approx. 1:00 PM, Alan?

Did she see an "Oswald imposter"?

Or do you want to brand Mrs. Roberts as a teller of tall tales?

[Martin Weidmann]

Then who did Earlene Roberts see dash in and out of the Beckley roominghouse at approx. 1:00 PM, Alan?

Did she see an "Oswald imposter"?

Or do you want to brand Mrs. Roberts as a teller of tall tales?

Or do you want to brand Mrs. Roberts as a teller of tall tales?

Her employer did!

Do you also accept her story about a police car honking twice in front of the house?

Did she see an "Oswald imposter"?

No, she probably did see Oswald, just like she saw him standing at the bus stop several minutes past 1 PM.

Which of course makes it completely impossible for Oswald to have been at 10th/Patton when Tippit was killed.

[David Von Pein]

Do you also accept her [Earlene Roberts'] story about a police car honking twice in front of the house?

Well, that's another matter entirely. The topic I was referring to earlier was whether or not Earlene Roberts had really seen Lee Harvey Oswald enter and leave the Beckley roominghouse at about 1:00 PM on November 22.

Apparently the originator of this discussion, Alan J. Ford, thinks Mrs. Roberts did lie about that subject (or maybe Alan thinks Roberts saw one of the many "Oswald doubles" that so many CTers think were running around Dallas in circa 1963).

But whether or not Mrs. Roberts was telling the truth about the police car honking its horn outside the roominghouse has no bearing on whether she was telling the truth about seeing Oswald on 11/22, and that's because her story about seeing Oswald that day was verified by Lee Oswald himself, who told the police after his arrest that he had, indeed, gone to his Beckley room shortly after the assassination occurred.

Regarding Mrs. Roberts and the alleged horn-honking incident, here's what I had to say about that subject several years ago:

---------------------------

"It must be kept in mind that Mrs. Roberts testified that it was not unusual at all for a police car to stop in front of the roominghouse and toot its horn. It happened on multiple OTHER days, according to Roberts. So even if such an occurrence DID take place on November 22nd, it could be looked upon as a NORMAL occurrence, not an ABNORMAL or unusual one.

Or do some conspiracy theorists think that the Dallas Police were so shrewd in their advanced planning of the so-called "Frame-Up" of Lee Harvey Oswald that they had a police car stop in front of 1026 N. Beckley Avenue every so often in the weeks and/or months BEFORE the assassination, just so the car could honk its horn in front of the house...in order to make it look like an ordinary occurrence?

I'd like to know how the conspiracy theorists who think that a police car was "signalling" to Oswald on November 22 can possibly explain away the very same kind of horn-honking which took place at that exact same residence on multiple OTHER days when Presidents WEREN'T being murdered?

When we look at the horn-honking topic from that point-of-view, it makes any 11/22 horn-honking incident seem much less sinister. And if it WAS "sinister", then it's an awfully strange coincidence that the horn was honked ("tip-tip", says Roberts) in the exact same manner in which it was honked by other policemen on OTHER days prior to November 22nd. Wouldn't you agree?"

-- DVP; April 17, 2008

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-195.html

Also See:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-lee-harvey-oswalds-room.html

---------------------------

BTW, here's how author Vincent Bugliosi handled Earlene Roberts' story about the police car:

[Gerry Down]

Well, that's another matter entirely. The topic I was referring to earlier was whether or not Earlene Roberts had really seen Lee Harvey Oswald enter and leave the Beckley roominghouse at about 1:00 PM on November 22.

Apparently the originator of this discussion, Alan J. Ford, thinks Mrs. Roberts did lie about that subject (or maybe Alan thinks Roberts saw one of the many "Oswald doubles" that so many CTers think were running around Dallas in circa 1963).

But whether or not Mrs. Roberts was telling the truth about the police car honking its horn outside the roominghouse has no bearing on whether she was telling the truth about seeing Oswald on 11/22, and that's because her story about seeing Oswald that day was verified by Lee Oswald himself, who told the police after his arrest that he had, indeed, gone to his Beckley room shortly after the assassination occurred.

Regarding Mrs. Roberts and the alleged horn-honking incident, here's what I had to say about that subject several years ago:

---------------------------

"It must be kept in mind that Mrs. Roberts testified that it was not unusual at all for a police car to stop in front of the roominghouse and toot its horn. It happened on multiple OTHER days, according to Roberts. So even if such an occurrence DID take place on November 22nd, it could be looked upon as a NORMAL occurrence, not an ABNORMAL or unusual one.

Or do some conspiracy theorists think that the Dallas Police were so shrewd in their advanced planning of the so-called "Frame-Up" of Lee Harvey Oswald that they had a police car stop in front of 1026 N. Beckley Avenue every so often in the weeks and/or months BEFORE the assassination, just so the car could honk its horn in front of the house...in order to make it look like an ordinary occurrence?

I'd like to know how the conspiracy theorists who think that a police car was "signalling" to Oswald on November 22 can possibly explain away the very same kind of horn-honking which took place at that exact same residence on multiple OTHER days when Presidents WEREN'T being murdered?

When we look at the horn-honking topic from that point-of-view, it makes any 11/22 horn-honking incident seem much less sinister. And if it WAS "sinister", then it's an awfully strange coincidence that the horn was honked ("tip-tip", says Roberts) in the exact same manner in which it was honked by other policemen on OTHER days prior to November 22nd. Wouldn't you agree?"

-- DVP; April 17, 2008

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-195.html

Also See:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-lee-harvey-oswalds-room.html

---------------------------

BTW, here's how author Vincent Bugliosi handled Earlene Roberts' story about the police car:

One theory is that the area outside the rooming house was a street junction and it would be common for cars to hoot the horn there when a driver in front fails to move off quickly enough at the junction. Though that would not explain why only police cars seemed to hoot the horn.

[Martin Weidmann]

Well, that's another matter entirely. The topic I was referring to earlier was whether or not Earlene Roberts had really seen Lee Harvey Oswald enter and leave the Beckley roominghouse at about 1:00 PM on November 22.

Apparently the originator of this discussion, Alan J. Ford, thinks Mrs. Roberts did lie about that subject (or maybe Alan thinks Roberts saw one of the many "Oswald doubles" that so many CTers think were running around Dallas in circa 1963).

But whether or not Mrs. Roberts was telling the truth about the police car honking its horn outside the roominghouse has no bearing on whether she was telling the truth about seeing Oswald on 11/22, and that's because her story about seeing Oswald that day was verified by Lee Oswald himself, who told the police after his arrest that he had, indeed, gone to his Beckley room shortly after the assassination occurred.

I have reduced your post to the part I want to reply to.

Well, that's another matter entirely.

Actually, no it isn't. It goes to the credibility of the witness.

But whether or not Mrs. Roberts was telling the truth about the police car honking its horn outside the roominghouse has no bearing on whether she was telling the truth about seeing Oswald on 11/22

Of course it does have a bearing on her testimony if she is shown to be lying about other things. If she doesn't completely tell the truth on everything how do you know what is true and what isn't?

her story about seeing Oswald that day was verified by Lee Oswald himself, who told the police after his arrest that he had, indeed, gone to his Beckley room shortly after the assassination occurred.


Who did Oswald tell that?

Oswald's presence at the rooming house is one of the most crucial issues in the Tippit case. If Oswald was there, but only a few minutes later than "just after 1", he could not have been at 10th & Patton on time to kill Tippit. If he didn't leave the rooming house with a jacket, or left it with a darker color jacket (as Roberts testified) he could not be the person witnesses saw wearing a light grey (or white) jackets. Yet, the investigators, just [rather selectively] took the word of a woman who was blind in one eye and had poor sight in the other and who was known to her employer as unreliable.

[David Von Pein]

If she [Earlene Roberts] doesn't completely tell the truth on everything, how do you know what is true and what isn't?

Re: the topic of "Did Mrs. Roberts Actually See Oswald Enter The Roominghouse On 11/22/63?"....

There are multiple ways to verify that she was telling the truth about that. Besides Oswald's own admission (see my next comment), there's also cab driver William Whaley, who took Oswald to the general area of his roominghouse on 11/22. (Am I now supposed to believe that Whaley took some Oswald look-alike to Oak Cliff instead of the real LHO?)

Given all the things that verify Oswald went to 1026 Beckley on 11/22, is it truly reasonable to believe otherwise? I think not.

Who did Oswald tell that?

Captain Fritz. (See WCR Page 601, below.)

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0313a.htm

Oswald's presence at the rooming house is one of the most crucial issues in the Tippit case. If Oswald was there, but only a few minutes later than "just after 1", he could not have been at 10th & Patton on time to kill Tippit.

Conspiracy theorists never seem to want to evaluate ALL of Earlene Roberts' testimony concerning the time that Oswald spent in his room. It's true that Mrs. Roberts testified that Oswald "went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes" [6 H 438], but it's also a fact that she also said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440].

No CTer ever wants to add in that last important statement made by Roberts.

And does it really take 3 or 4 minutes to wander around a closet-sized bedroom and grab a jacket, a gun, and a few bullets?

Also.....if Oswald was walking faster than the WC investigators who timed the trip from Neely St. to 1026 Beckley at 5 min./45 sec., then Oswald would have reached his room prior to 1:00. That fact, coupled with the almost certain fact that he was only in that room (per Mrs. Roberts) "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket", plus the additional unknown factor of Oswald possibly walking very fast or even running at least part of the way from Beckley to 10th Street (we'll never know his speed for certain), gives LHO ample time to make it to the site of J.D. Tippit's murder by approx. 1:14 to 1:15 PM CST (which is the time when the sum total of evidence indicates Tippit was very likely shot).

If he didn't leave the rooming house with a jacket, or left it with a darker color jacket (as Roberts testified)....

Maybe you'd better listen again to this 11/22 interview with Mrs. Roberts. If you fast-forward to 2:40 you'll hear Roberts say that Oswald left his room wearing a "short gray coat".

Yes, Roberts said something different later on regarding the jacket color. But on Day One, she said "short gray coat".

Of course, we could now start discussing the various shades of "gray" that exist in the color spectrum—light gray vs. dark gray vs. medium gray, etc.

Bonus Link:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-lee-harvey-oswalds-room.html

[Martin Weidmann]

Re: the topic of "Did Mrs. Roberts Actually See Oswald Enter The Roominghouse On 11/22/63?"....

There are multiple ways to verify that she was telling the truth about that. Besides Oswald's own admission (see my next comment), there's also cab driver William Whaley, who took Oswald to the general area of his roominghouse on 11/22. (Am I now supposed to believe that Whaley took some Oswald look-alike to Oak Cliff instead of the real LHO?)

Given all the things that verify Oswald went to 1026 Beckley on 11/22, is it truly reasonable to believe otherwise? I think not.

I don't believe otherwise. I think it's reasonable to accept that Oswald did in fact go to the roominghouse on 11/22. It's the overall credibility of Earlene Roberts as a witness that I question.

Captain Fritz. (See WCR Page 601, below.)

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0313a.htm

Fritz wrote his report from memory after Oswald's death. There is no way to verify what was true or not. Fritz, in my mind, lost all credibility when he presented Buell Wesley Frazier with a pre-written "confession" on Friday evening, which Frazier refused to sign.

Conspiracy theorists never seem to want to evaluate ALL of Earlene Roberts' testimony concerning the time that Oswald spent in his room. It's true that Mrs. Roberts testified that Oswald "went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes" [6 H 438], but it's also a fact that she also said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440].

No CTer ever wants to add in that last important statement made by Roberts.

Why do you want to shift the argument to what "conspiracy theorists" do or don't want to do. According to the reports (if they are to be believed) Oswald told his interrogators that he changed all his clothes, which makes Robert's "observation" somewhat questionable.

And does it really take 3 or 4 minutes to wander around a closet-sized bedroom and grab a jacket, a gun, and a few bullets?

You're using a very vague time estimate of Earlene Roberts to make some sort of point. Even worse, you are doing so while ignoring the fact the Roberts said that she was concentrating on the television as she wanted to see the 1 PM news, just as Oswald walked in. That places his arrival at just about 1 PM and his departure at around 1:03 or 1:04

Also.....if Oswald was walking faster than the WC investigators who timed the trip from Neely St. to 1026 Beckley at 5 min./45 sec., then Oswald would have reached his room prior to 1:00. That fact, coupled with the almost certain fact that he was only in that room (per Mrs. Roberts) "just long enough to go in there and get a jacket", plus the additional unknown factor of Oswald possibly walking very fast or even running at least part of the way from Beckley to 10th Street (we'll never know his speed for certain), gives LHO ample time to make it to the site of J.D. Tippit's murder by approx. 1:14 to 1:15 PM CST (which is the time when the sum total of evidence indicates Tippit was very likely shot).

Pure speculation.

And, no, the total evidence does not indicate that Tippit was shot at 1:14 or 1:15. A simple example;

Markham testified that she left her home a little after 1 PM, perhaps 1:06. She needed to walk two blocks to get to the bus stop on Jefferson. According to their timetable there were busses at 1:12 and 1:22. Markham estimated that she would catch her usual bus at 1:15, which could be either one of the busses mentioned. To walk two blocks, Markham would have needed no more that 6 minutes, which means that she would have passed by 10th and Patton no later than 1:09 or 1:10 and she would have arrived at the bus stop at around 1:12 or 1:13. It is physically impossible for Markham to have been at 10th and Patton when Tippit was killed, if that indeed happened at 1:14 or 1:15. It does, however, match a timeline where Tippit is killed between 1:08 and 1:10.

Maybe you'd better listen again to this 11/22 interview with Mrs. Roberts. If you fast-forward to 2:40 you'll hear Roberts say that Oswald left his room wearing a "short gray coat".

Yes, Roberts said something different later on regarding the jacket color. But on Day One, she said "short gray coat".

Of course, we could now start discussing the various shades of "gray" that exist in the color spectrum—light gray vs. dark gray vs. medium gray, etc.

No need to. At her WC testimony she was shown the jacket and she denied that it was the jacket she had seen. Why do you prefer what she said in an interview? Haven't we already established this is an unreliable witness?

Bonus Link:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-lee-harvey-oswalds-room.html

It adds no significant value, but it's noted.

[David Von Pein]

Fritz wrote his report from memory after Oswald's death.

With the aid of his handwritten notes, of course. You're not going to pretend Fritz' notes were written up days later, are you?

Fritz, in my mind, lost all credibility when he presented Buell Wesley Frazier with a pre-written "confession" on Friday evening, which Frazier refused to sign.

I have some serious doubts as to whether that event took place.

It's not surprising, though, to see the conspiracy theorists jumping for joy after Buell Frazier came up with that story about Captain Fritz 39 years after it allegedly occurred (while never saying a word about it prior to 2002).

But, what do I know? Maybe it did happen. But the 39-year delay should make a person at least wonder about it a little bit.

More about Mr. Frazier's multiple late-arriving bombshell tales here.

You're using a very vague time estimate of Earlene Roberts to make some sort of point. Even worse, you are doing so while ignoring the fact the Roberts said that she was concentrating on the television as she wanted to see the 1 PM news, just as Oswald walked in. That places his arrival at just about 1 PM and his departure at around 1:03 or 1:04.

The one and only source for the "1:03" or "1:04" departure time for Oswald is Earlene Roberts' absurdly long (IMO) estimate of the length of time Oswald was inside his room ("3 or 4 minutes").

But if the actual time that LHO spent in that room was along the lines of 30 to 60 seconds (which is very likely much more accurate, especially given the "hurried" nature that Oswald was said to have exhibited during both his arrival and his departure from the roominghouse that day), then that would have provided Oswald with up to 3 additional minutes to travel the 0.85 mile from 1026 Beckley to 10th & Patton.

But a CTer named Martin Weidmann, who just said in his last post that he thinks Mrs. Roberts is an "unreliable witness", seems to want to embrace Roberts' "3 or 4 minutes" testimony as the absolute truth. Therefore, per many CTers, Mrs. Roberts' estimate is now written in stone and has (somehow) been turned into a rock-solid and proven fact. (Pot meets Kettle once more, it would seem.)

The total evidence does not indicate that Tippit was shot at 1:14 or 1:15. A simple example: Markham testified that she left her home a little after 1 PM, perhaps 1:06. She needed to walk two blocks to get to the bus stop on Jefferson. According to their timetable there were busses at 1:12 and 1:22. Markham estimated that she would catch her usual bus at 1:15, which could be either one of the busses mentioned. To walk two blocks, Markham would have needed no more [than] 6 minutes, which means that she would have passed by 10th and Patton no later than 1:09 or 1:10 and she would have arrived at the bus stop at around 1:12 or 1:13. It is physically impossible for Markham to have been at 10th and Patton when Tippit was killed, if that indeed happened at 1:14 or 1:15. It does, however, match a timeline where Tippit is killed between 1:08 and 1:10.

Helen Markham's Bus --- Click Here.

Also See --- Tippit Timelines.

At her WC testimony, she [Earlene Roberts] was shown the jacket and she denied that it was the jacket she had seen.

No, she didn't. When Mrs. Roberts was shown Oswald's gray zipper jacket (CE162), she did say "It seems like the one he put on was darker than that", but she didn't flat-out "deny" that CE162 was the jacket she saw Oswald wearing on Nov. 22nd. In fact, she said "Well, maybe it was". And she also said "I won't be sure, because I really don't know." (Source: 6 H 439.)